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I use to bang but really much more than necessary, if I want to lower a string while making an extended temperament on center string, and my pin is set and well "loaded".

Even in that case, often I cannot have the string lowering even 0.2 ct, it just does not move, because of the strong springy balance at the pin.

What kind of tuning pin motion /stabilization technique do you use ?
I agree totally that if I would tune for an strong pianist, I would check my tuning with firm blows , just as an insurance.
But really nothing is supposed to move, because the tuning pin stress actually absorb the whip effect coming from the string, the pin bow a little and pull back everything in place.

when the tip is inserted on the pin, I am under the impression I cannot turn it any way up or down, and that the pin is very firm, not supple bu firm as some bend steel piece, that contains energy.

Whenever something have to move it comes from segments of wire after the bridge. I hope my numerous light blows when tuning give me control on that too (but anyway I thing=k we cannot really manage that, a part of the tension goes back the bridge, but the rest may tilt it a little, if the piano is raised much.

Allowing the piano to spread a lot of energy (sustain pedal) may assure that the string will not move more.

All the upper parts of wire and pin are under absolute control by the tuning lever.
I think that ETD are more or less lowering the amount of sensations you have, as you need to focus on visual plus the rest.I generally focus only on perceptions, and leave the ear at work in automatic mode (mostly focusing on amounts of consonances). That is very quiet in the end.
Ifind advantages in earplugs with pianos that have a short tone, to be played strong enough so the moment where the tone behaviour change in FFF playing is attained and tuned.

I do not find it necessary on good pianos.

Regards

BTW the listening mode that recognize the energy spread in octaves, (for instance) allows to tune the ideal octaves from A3 to A7 without entering in beat comparison mode. Straight octaves can be so precise then (when checks are done, they are right most often, so I almost stopped using them. But the octaves are really worked as unison then with all the listening to phase effects, to the power amount, the "straightness and firmness of the final result.
Changing the power of the played octave allow to build a more or less "energetic " octave then, (an octave can even saturate to itself too easily if too straight)

Good topic for another thread: Good understanding of stability + soft blows = no ear plugs, fresh ears always, faster tunings, good stability, and no finger, hand, wrist, arm, shoulder, neck, ear pain.

This is how I tune. Six tunings a day does not tire me out, I could and have done more. No hearing loss in 15 years of full time tuning.

I use test blows on one or two notes to check my hammer technique, IF the piano is giving me trouble. Most of the time I don't use test blows. I passed the RPT exam without any test blows. It can be done. The secret is understanding friction and elastic deformation in the tuning pin / non speaking length system, as Isaac alluded to.

Hi olek, I didn't put (+,0,+) because I hadn't ever considered that option! But, you are right: that is absolutely another option--especially when one considers the left string and the right pedal.

Re: ETDs and sounding too perfect/lifeless
Yes...I know exactly what you are talking about. If I'm really going all out, and want more resonance (ie humanity), I tend to readjust the octaves (and 12th) and decide on the unisons to even out the temperament. From there, I reset the Verituner for each note so that the other technicians that I work with (ie the ones that typically do all the heavy banging and rendering before I start my work) can do the same thing every-time. As you know, most concert technicians don't care about these details...it probably deserves a separate thread if you want to talk more. Or, maybe I'll fly through CDG next time so we can just chat in person. :-D

Thank you and thank you for the offer, ! absolutely (or I'll fly to Vienna !)

DO you have the time for some plucking tests with the ETD, muting other strings or no (unmuted strings change the pitch of the one plucked)?

From 000, I noticed that if the note is played for sometime less than 30 seconds, it automatically stabilize in that +0+ shape (could be -0- probably but it does not seem to happen naturally.

That sound logical to me that the strings HAVE to find their better balance and equilibrium and that it the external ones are well in phase the center one just will make a small step apart so anyone is happy sooner.

Now most strip 'muters' install that without thinking of it if they work the unison in 2 parts. If the unison is tuned 3 strings , now other options appears.

BTW I was surprised by the amount of possibilities with the basic -0+ that may tend to 00+ or the opposite, but yet while in the exercise of doing -0+ the management of the attack and after sound ratio is larger than I though, and the sound "bowl" (that deformed bowl that follows the initial decay , can be made more or less sparkling (contains more or less active partials)

A very interesting way to shape the tone, but it is a bit dangerous as we focus on such fine lietening mode that it can make us loose contact with the global tone once hear a little farther (particularly the "eraser effect "part of the -0+ I find dangerous. A dull unison can be obtained that way as well.

Regards

Yep, the strongest resonance provided by the instrument is located there (more between 12-15 in my ear, than 8-12.

I appreciate that you understand what I mean, I herad some very well tuned instruments where the tuning system used was too present and perceived (by a tuner). Then the piano is really "forced in playing in tune" by that (acoustical or logical) construction, but its basis is very present. This is the case with tunings that push the compromising in slow beating intervals sometime. Or even with much enlarged tunings based on "pure 5 ths" (or pure something, for what is worth)

This is also the case with the "perfect ET tuning" we can produce today. That is absolutely neutral and so much balanced, the personality of the piano have to be strong.

Now all may depend of the instrument, some will not accept much "grease" from low beating intervals to be apparent, and they will sound nasal then.

Also the strength of the consonance is near the ET if the piano iH allows for that.if caught in the iH the tone can be much present and rich, but justness too much "expanded" to be easily used by singers for instance.

I guess our brains are much used to ET, and then if a certain consonance is used the intonation/justness is easy for others.
But a certain tension effect begins to be apparent harmonically and melodically speaking.
SO yes each new note tuned is a compromise, and add the tuner's ear natural flaws as a part of the final result. (I believe that with age tuners tend to have a more brilliant/clear tone as they want to hear the partials more, and they also reduce the size of octave as they are bored with the "artificial stretch" (something that begin in the "temperament octave" often).
Those 2 options together may well balance themselves so the end result is also good.

This reminded me of something Sally Phillips told me... I commented on how good the octaves sounded on my piano when she tuned it; really clean and pure from top to bottom.

She said she did not add a lot of stretch to the octaves because they don't need it, especially with classical music.

She gave me a really good example to follow... I doubt I will ever achieve a tuning as good, but a worthy goal to have anyway.

Rick

+1

That said, tuning very long pianos with heavy strings implies a certain amount of power input, as long as the job cannot be done "at he pin".
then it is different, and less input necessary IMO.

I noticed German tuners like to tune "firm"

Olek, of course I have time, especially when it comes to piano experiments and advancing the cause! I'm headed to German-land for concerts this weekend, but when I get back I'll think through more about what you've been suggesting with the unisons and try it out!

And yes, I balance out the 8/12/15...I think we probably do something similar...maybe...

It is so nice to chat with someone that is constantly thinking about how to improve things!!!

So how does one make ET (I'm presuming) "something truly very special?" Especially if one has spent so much time with the machine and earplugs "banging it in to submission." I believe if one doesn't start at the beginning by listening to the subtleties, they probably aren't going to gain much in the end. Of course I refer to this more in the sense of concert tuning than taking a tall vertical pile of mediocrity and doing a pitch raise and fine tuning. I also believe if one can't tune for stability without a machine the likelihood of doings so with diminishes (IMO).

It doesn't take much time even on the youtube to see amateurs banging the snot out of a note while wildly turning their cheap tuning hammer with the false assumption that you bang it in to stability. Certainly the ideal situation each time would be to sit at a quality instrument that doesn't move much and just finesse it to perfection for an hour or so. But for most, that isn't much of a reality, even with concert instruments.

Instruments tuned by the best tuners are settled in their tuning and donot ask so much work, "ideally".

Then instruments in homes , tuned yearly or 6 months, may need also relatively simple tuning if the job was done well precedent.

That mean you can directly tune in fine mode, most often , even a portion of the piano needs "rebuilding".

No surprise, the tone is a little wild, but many notes do not ask for the pin to be really moved, direct shimming does it.

PS, what I call shimming usually is moving the string an the tuning pin together without modifying the pin's implantation .

Then there is also the action of re installing the tension of the NSL that have raised because it passed in the speaking length.

And all the manipulations to balance(even out as many say) the NSL with the pin on one side, the speaking length on the other.

even medium grade instruments can be find in stability condition, but there is a series of tuning that installs that condition ideally when the piano is recent, but can be done later even with old strings.

One need to "lock the pin with the wire" to get there. I see no other way.

Not to be done on harpsichords or FortePianas, that need much more frequent tunings, as the dismounting of the pin "setting" is not something I feel the instruments like much (and is more work for the tuner) . SO harpsichords are not really "set" and fortePianas more lightly than what can be done.


Regards

I do not worry much about the poor videos of DIY, it is normal they do not have good samples to work from, the training is taking time for the trainee but for the instructor too, so it is not free, out of asking your tuner to show you how to correct an unison, so you can touch with a finger how difficult it is and correct a few ones if necessary , make them discrete anyway. I showed a few customers, none of them can do fine tuning. they can make unison less bad usually.

Best description of many upright pianos that I've ever heard!

that is sad that you have so much short or bad sounding pianos.

I tend not to give up in front of some small pianos, and when they are voiced and tuned, at last some musicality can be expressed.

I use a CHAS style tuning anytime I need to tune a poorly sounding piano, but if it is just because of age, I voice a little before tuning so I have something to work with.

the amount of musicality a tuner can obtain from a short mediocre piano (Cheap Chinese for instance) is really surprising, not that I like them but it happened as a challenge, and make me think of how important our work is for the pianist .

Are short mediocre pianos better than tall mediocre pianos?

Short pianos 'got no reason to live ...

I think where pianos are concerned mediocrity is more an existential state of being not directly related to stature.

They got little strings
Little keys
Little hammers
Eaten by itty bitty fleas
They're too short to tune
And your back is bound to ache
And they got no room for
your hammer at the break

Short pianos 'got no reason
Short pianos 'got no reason
Short pianos 'got no reason to live