Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
52 registered members (Adam S., beeboss, AndyP, BobTB, Bambers, bennevis, 11 invisible), 1,544 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2271781 - 05/06/14 08:46 AM The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Use7P3tLkKI&list=UU1YXuoUQn9SlpZAVp3rrGFw

action centres are still loose and some bridge pins are as well but not bad for a 170-year-old piano!


rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#2271826 - 05/06/14 11:06 AM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,818
wouter79 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
wouter79  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,818
Nice!
How much of this sound is due to the hammers, and how much due to the bridge, sound board etc?


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
#2271965 - 05/06/14 04:19 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
well, there are other pianos of this period that have been restored with 'different' felt on youtube.

Hammers are generally a huge part of the sound of any piano, though.

The soundboard in this case is much smaller than a modern one, the strings are parallel and there is a cutoff-bar which limits the surface area..

the piano is about two meters long and uses two strings per note in the bass (diameter 2.7mm at low C)


rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2272014 - 05/06/14 06:18 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,382
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,382
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Thank you Max. Even though we can only listen to a shadow of the original sound, the endeavour is always fascinating for me.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2272592 - 05/07/14 11:32 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
Hi,

You're welcome.

It's always hard to have a clear idea of what an instrument could have sounded like from centuries ago.

The recording and performance would have to be of a professional level to do the piano justice but I had no time to organize one. The room is very small and the playing is amateurish.

But one gets the idea, I suppose.

What aspects of the sound do you think could have changed significantly during the ageing process?


Last edited by acortot; 05/07/14 11:35 PM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2272687 - 05/08/14 08:20 AM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
If all felts are felted without layers (may be why they cannot be thick really ) . The tone is certainly much different.

The "natural" felt from Abel is using different king of wool, supposedly they are more felted than usual. WUrzen is also providing a similar felt.

I have seen such layered felts on Bechsteins from the 1910 era, they came from Weickert filtz factory.

I also understand some lanolin is reintroduced in the felt after felting. This have to be very well dosed. I had a recovering job with that felt where the lanolin was too much present, a simple ironing glued the fibers with it.

I dont know for sure but as the top layer is damping somewhat, I suggest that using a strip of cushion felt around the crown would produce similar results.

That thin layer of "different felt" is not enough to create dynamics in my opinion.

This is interesting anyway.


Last edited by Olek; 05/08/14 08:20 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2272958 - 05/08/14 07:00 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
It is not wool felt and does not have lanolin I guess since lanolin is found on sheep?

It has increased dynamics over both wool and hatmaker's rabbit felt

I have a video on my youtube channel that shows this clearly from a few years ago

Wurzen tried to supply me with the closest thing they had years ago but the dynamic range was inferior

The fibres are highly crimped, 15 micrometers or so, like cashmere and felted like old damper felt.

If you can find a source of felt for me that uses high-crimp super-thin fibres (read: very expensive) I would love to try it

Have you ever worked with Pape felt?

Last edited by acortot; 05/08/14 07:02 PM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2272962 - 05/08/14 07:08 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
By the way, thick felt came about as a way to make cheaper hammers.

Before Alfred Dolge marketed the first modern hammer-making machines the 'layers' were discrete and made of leather (and later leather and hard colored felt with an outer 'pianissimo' layer), the outer layer being equivalent to the 2-3 mm that piano techs 'needle' onto modern hammers

So 4.5-2.5 mm is actually not so thin. How many tuners do you know that needle 4.5mm into the crown of bass hammers?

Last edited by acortot; 05/08/14 07:16 PM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2273132 - 05/09/14 06:36 AM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Oh I think we may be talk of something different , between layered hammers and the layered felt .

The felt I have seen was 1920 possibly. and had those beige layers, I thought it was from a less bleached felt.

For your inquiry, may be you could ask Laoureux , they did make the first tests with those felts, and explained me that the time the felt is worked in the felting machine (2 persons are there to manipulate it) is about 12 hours for that quality, while many felts are obtained in half that time.

Now finding the thin wool, I dont know, I was explained there are only 5 or 6 possible provenances for the wool used to make hammers, so the choice seem to be reduced.

The felt you used gives indeed some resiliency for the soft nuances, but not sure it is so different from using a modern soft felt, without much tension. I tested yesterday with a strip of cushion cloth 4.5mm, I am waiting for it to set and will see what it gives.

But you cannot play FFF, the damping part surpasses the dynamic part soon. It sound as playing with a moderator. the spectra is cut. I would at last put a finger on each unison and bang the hammer strong on the strings 50 times, or it will take much time to have some partials showing.


You did make a huge work of putting that felt back. that is neatly done.

I will make a nice experiment : glue a strip of cushion without tension

And with some tension on another hammer.

Regards

PS there is also something that is difficult to obtain : the hammers once glued are installed in individual wooden cauls that press them somewhat and avoid any slippage.

You do not obtain that compressed state from the installation of strips only glued around.
I dont expect the tension to add much when using the strips of cushion, but hammering may do something.





Last edited by Olek; 05/09/14 07:33 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2273340 - 05/09/14 04:54 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
hi Isaac,

The gray Pape felt (which is felted different than the blue felt used in the early 1900's) is a kind of red herring

Before the use of this felt only different kinds of leather were used and only one or two people in the factory had the necessary skills to make hammers, after, as you can read in my article, the piano industry used the Pape felt almost exclusively (probably between 1830 and 1850) because anyone could cover the hammers.

they were not glued in cauls like leather or later white tensioned felt because just the tack of the glue was enough to keep them on the hammer. You must remember that the felt is even glued on the tip.

It was just a temporary period where this Pape felt was used and, since wool does not have the same mechanical or felting qualities, later when wool was used, the outer layer became thicker and thicker and more dense.

I have tried all kinds of felt and they do not behave like Pape felt.

I suspect that perhaps Cashmere felt might be close, but do you know anyone who makes Cashmere felt?

The mechanical difference is that the Pape felt has very fine and curly fibres that when compressed flatten completely and couple to the hard layers underneath..

if you use rubber as an outer layer, the hammer rebounds and almost makes no sound (I have tried) so not having much resiliency is good in a way. The felt has this low resiliency because of the rabbit fibre.

I have tried all kinds of felt.. I have been looking for a substitute since 2007 and have contacted every major Felt Manufacturer including Laoureux. Nobody makes anything similar

The felt is applied without tension, and if tension is used it just stretches and falls apart.

The reason that it is glued on the tip, unlike Leather and White Wool felt is that if it was only glued on the sides with no tension, there would be a pocket of air under the felt after it was used a while


rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2273345 - 05/09/14 04:59 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_D65bedTc

as far as the sound not being bright enough for your taste, the above link was recorded with Adelina Patti's London Erard from the late 1800's

The sound is very muffled compared to modern piano sound

this is not a result of the frequency response of the recording as her voice has harmonics which go up to at least 3 KHz and the piano has a 'plummy' soft attack

we are used to the later, more modern bright sound but if you listen to other pianos before world war 1 there were some that had kept the dark singing tone and not adopted the bright and percussive tone that came to dominate the piano world, especially since the 1970's


rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2274573 - 05/12/14 05:21 AM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Hello,

I have read your document an find it highly interesting.

The videos are very interesting, thanks for the link, but I believe you hear there more than what is.
This is not the good era, the piano have not a so muffled tone, probably also use for accompanying it was choose or prepped to be discrete.

I would not be too much surprised it would be a Pleyel piano with hard German strings.

It was in an intermediate era, I totally agree on what you said about volume, but listen to the 3ds at 1:30 they have yet a "modern" shape.

The pianist is supposed to be very discrete. I would look for pieces where he need more power.

Regards








Last edited by Olek; 05/13/14 04:38 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2275041 - 05/12/14 06:52 PM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
acortot Offline
500 Post Club Member
acortot  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 581
Italy
It was an Erard London Piano, I think from the 1880's or so.

but as you know, Erard pianos do not have that much felt on the outer layer.

you cannot judge a piano sound of the Romantic Period with a modern piano.

Romantic pianos were built for small rooms, not concert-halls and they had half the tension of modern pianos.


rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2275243 - 05/13/14 03:42 AM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,080
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,080
London
The problem is with microphones. I've tried 100 ones and they don't capture any of the Pleyel sound. I'm looking in to renting.

#2275264 - 05/13/14 05:50 AM Re: The sound of original Hammer Felt used by Chopin [Re: acortot]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Yes certainly the nuances are when you are playin,g or near the piano. on the recordings the soun is a little similar to my tests with a strip of cushion on a modern hammer.

BTW I have to agree that it seem to me the tension in that case will muffle the tone, as it is not enough to make it resilient and it makes it damping more efficiently . Strange
need more testing


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
KAWAI MP7: my piano presets
by Nor. 06/23/17 04:09 AM
The truth about the blues scales.
by Nahum. 06/23/17 02:44 AM
Yet Another ETD thread
by DoelKees. 06/23/17 01:31 AM
Piano Technician Academy & Their Tools
by Gimpt. 06/23/17 01:23 AM
To Shake up the Digital Piano scene?
by peterws. 06/22/17 06:08 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,403
Posts2,638,354
Members88,164
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0