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Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer #2271237
05/05/14 01:40 AM
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Harold Bauer was a pianist who taught himself to play at the virtuoso level. He had taken some lessons from his aunt, but no real technical training; his main instrument was the violin, but there were too many brilliant violinists, and he had trouble making concerts. Instead he started accompanying other string players. That is where his story begins:

"When I reached Paris and saw old friends and again made efforts to start playing the violin, I was laughed at because I had admitted that I had been playing the piano in public for several months. I received invitations to play with singers and instrumentalists; and finally some of my friends thought I had made sufficient progress to guarantee the expenses of a piano recital. How was I going to make people believe that I was worth of playing the piano in public when I had no technique!

"I had become a pianist in spite of myself, yet I had no technique and I did not know how to acquire it. In the midst of this perplexity, I went one day to a private house to see a young woman dance. I paid no attention at that time to her name. She went through a lot of gestures and posing to the strains of classical music familiar to me. I noticed that she was using gestures that seemed to illustrate all the dynamic variations of the musical phrase. Her movements fascinated me with their beauty and rhythm. Every sound seemed to be translated into terms of motion, and, as I watched her carefully, the idea crept into my mind that this process might - conceivably - be something like a reversible one. I said to myself, as long as a loud tone apparently brought forth a vigorous gesture and a soft tone a delicate gesture, why, in playing the piano, should not a vigorous gesture bring forth a loud tone and a delicate gesture a soft tone? The fact that this was precisely what had always taken place did not occur to me. It seemed to me that I had made a great discovery and, looking at the dancer, I imagined that if I could get my hands to make on a reduced scale certain motions that she was making with her whole body, I might perhaps acquire some of those fine gradations of tone which, to me, represented the most important qualities of piano playing. At any rate, I was desperate and I determined to try. I started by making angular and rediculous gestures at the piano in a way no human being had ever done before. Any other pianist seeing me practise might have doubted my sanity. I persisted, however. There was the preconceived idea of a certain kind of tone and it was necessary to find the gesture that could produce it.

"This eluded me as a rule, but once in a while tone and gesture seemed to belong together, quite unmistakably, and at such moments a ray of hope seemed to indicate that I was on the right track. Right, that is to say, for me, at that time, because my main idea was that if I could give an expressive sound to my performance next Saturday night, when I hoped to earn fifty francs, the audience might tolerate, to some extent at least, my lack of fluency and mechanical skill. This way of practicing, first dictated by necessity, later on became a habit of both mind and muscle, from which I never subsequently departed.

"Thirty years later I gave a recital in Los Angeles at which my old friend, Eugene Ysaye, was present. He came to see me in the artists' room after the concert with a lady who was a perfect stranger to me. He said, 'Of course you know Isadora.' I sad, 'Isadora who?' He said, 'IsadoraDuncan.' I said I did not know the lady but should like very much to meet her. He presented me to her. I said, 'Miss Duncan, I must tell you the story of my life because you are certainly unaware that you have had greater influence on it than anyone else."

The end.


Poetry is rhythm
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Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271241
05/05/14 02:13 AM
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Thanks for that! Mozart's skill was that he was a better violinist than pianist (according to dad) and also a trained singer. Looking from outside the box you tend to play the piano in a way that shouldn't be possible.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271246
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Glad you liked it!


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271545
05/05/14 05:21 PM
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The funniest influence on Harold Bauer becoming a pianist must have been good old Paderewsky who told him to become one ' because he had such beautiful hair'.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271636
05/05/14 10:01 PM
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I'd not heard of Harold Bauer before, but I looked him up on Spotify. His technique seems pretty solid, but the rhythm is a little eccentric - not consistently off, but now and then randomly altering where it makes little musical sense.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271639
05/05/14 10:08 PM
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I'm listening to his Pathetique right now - the first movement passed off pretty well, he's evidently got the chops for it, though the rubato in the crotchet passages detracted from the excitement for me. But the Adagio is a hideous mess with no sensitivity or control of dynamic, a constantly wavering rhythm, and not even a basic ability to hit all the notes in a chord at the same time.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Ebadlun] #2271648
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Originally Posted by Ebadlun
I'd not heard of Harold Bauer before, but I looked him up on Spotify. His technique seems pretty solid, but the rhythm is a little eccentric - not consistently off, but now and then randomly altering where it makes little musical sense.

That sounds a lot like a description of Isadora Duncan.

Originally Posted by Ebadlun
I'm listening to his Pathetique right now - the first movement passed off pretty well, he's evidently got the chops for it, though the rubato in the crotchet passages detracted from the excitement for me. But the Adagio is a hideous mess with no sensitivity or control of dynamic, a constantly wavering rhythm, and not even a basic ability to hit all the notes in a chord at the same time.


I generally find like I get more out of a performance if I try to find what's good in it. Otherwise all of them are crap, every single famous pianist.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271652
05/05/14 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive

I generally find like I get more out of a performance if I try to find what's good in it. Otherwise all of them are crap, every single famous pianist.

I had the exact same reaction when reading his post.

It's a sour and sad thing to see people listen to an interpretation not for the music and the journey it provides in its own right, but instead for its ability to affirm the illusion that one's taste in music is second to none.

Last edited by Atrys; 05/05/14 10:54 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Atrys] #2271656
05/05/14 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by phantomFive

I generally find like I get more out of a performance if I try to find what's good in it. Otherwise all of them are crap, every single famous pianist.

I had the exact same reaction when reading his post.

It's a sour and sad thing to see people listen to an interpretation not for the music and the journey it provides in its own right, but instead for its ability to affirm the illusion that one's taste in music is second to none.


This is a very serious issue... Classical music nowadays has turned into exactly that. A constant pursue of perfectionism; people judge pianists on how many mistakes they've made ( and I'm not talking just about notes).
That's the huge difference between those 20th century pianists and the ones today: the audience; what they search when going to a concert. Before they went searching for music. Today they go to critique and compare.

I think I went a little overboard, but I do believe that this is the general situation.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271658
05/05/14 11:31 PM
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Er, have you guys actually listened to the movement in question? There's even a clunker of a wrong note in the third bar, and this is a grade 7 piece tops. The performance is stolid, amateurish and unexpressive, and there's no point looking for things to enjoy in it when I could just as easily listen to someone else who can play it properly.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271659
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Originally Posted by Ebadlun
The performance is stolid, amateurish and unexpressive

An opinion of yours.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271660
05/05/14 11:36 PM
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Have you listened to it?

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Ebadlun] #2271661
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Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Have you listened to it?

My having listened to anything at all has no affect on whether or not the opinion of another person is anything more than just an opinion.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271663
05/05/14 11:41 PM
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Fine, let's agree that every performance of everything by anyone is equally as good as any other performance of anything by anyone.

But, seriously, find it and listen to it. I'm not kidding, it's bad.

Last edited by Ebadlun; 05/05/14 11:42 PM.
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Ebadlun] #2271664
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Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Fine, let's agree that every performance of everything by anyone is equally as good as any other performance of anything by anyone.

That's a bit extreme, I wouldn't say that. Opinions are nothing but opinions, but there can be popular and unpopular opinions.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Atrys] #2271667
05/05/14 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Fine, let's agree that every performance of everything by anyone is equally as good as any other performance of anything by anyone.

That's a bit extreme, I wouldn't say that. Opinions are nothing but opinions, but there can be popular and unpopular opinions.

And?

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271671
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Originally Posted by JoelW

And?

What do you mean? A popular opinion is one that is held in large relative proportion of some set of persons (sampled or by population) against the other possible opinions. An unpopular opinion is one that is held in lesser proportions of the sample or population.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Ebadlun] #2271674
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Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Er, have you guys actually listened to the movement in question? There's even a clunker of a wrong note in the third bar, and this is a grade 7 piece tops. The performance is stolid, amateurish and unexpressive, and there's no point looking for things to enjoy in it when I could just as easily listen to someone else who can play it properly.


Nope, couldn't find it on youtube. If you know where I can find it, please link. The recording of the Appassionata is fine, though.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271675
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Thanks for that little explanation, but that's aside the point. Why does it matter if the opinion is popular or not?


Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271676
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Usually it doesn't.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: JoelW] #2271680
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Why does it matter if the opinion is popular or not?

It matters because it reflects important information about the state of that sample at some moment in time, which directly affects major systems: commercial, noncommercial, political and the rest of it; all of these things are contingent on popular opinions of varying "degrees of affect" of the power set of the population.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271682
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So?

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: JoelW] #2271683
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Originally Posted by JoelW
So?

If you don't see the importance in modeling and understanding global systems, your high school didn't do their job.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271695
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You just can't help yourself, can you? Let me remind you what this is about.

Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Fine, let's agree that every performance of everything by anyone is equally as good as any other performance of anything by anyone.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: JoelW] #2271696
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My memory's pretty good, thanks.

Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Fine, let's agree that every performance of everything by anyone is equally as good as any other performance of anything by anyone.

Obviously that was said in jest and only someone as insane as John Cage would actually take this at face.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271697
05/06/14 02:17 AM
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That's not the point. It's your response that I'm addressing.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: JoelW] #2271698
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Originally Posted by JoelW
That's not the point. It's your response that I'm addressing.

You aren't "addressing" anything. You're just doing what you do best and filling the thread with trivial bickering completely devoid of actual content.

Come out and say it, state your thoughts, make your case like an intelligible member of this forum like BruceD, Mark_C, Old Man, and others. Or, you can stick with quips for the sake of quips.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: Atrys] #2271701
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Ebadlun
Fine, let's agree that every performance of everything by anyone is equally as good as any other performance of anything by anyone.

That's a bit extreme, I wouldn't say that. Opinions are nothing but opinions, but there can be popular and unpopular opinions.

You've yet to tell me why this matters in this context.

Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: JoelW] #2271705
05/06/14 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelW

You've yet to tell me why this matters in this context.

No I haven't, I'm sure if you really tried you could make the connection.

Popular opinion can affect many things, music appreciation included.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Teaching yourself to be a virtuoso: Harold Bauer [Re: phantomFive] #2271707
05/06/14 02:56 AM
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You've explained the meaning of that statement in greater detail, but you haven't told me why it was relevant at all to your conversation.

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