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Topic Options
#2271257 - 05/05/14 04:13 AM Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers
bolobao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/14
Posts: 23
Same overall price, same action, but the MP7 seems to have a host of additional features.

Excluding aesthetics, is there any reason someone would buy the ES7?

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#2271260 - 05/05/14 04:34 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
Marko in Boston Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 1334
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
The ES7 built-in speakers are very good. They provide a slight vibration in the keys which helps to enhance that acoustic piano like feeling. Very enjoyable to play and might not get that connection or feeling from external speakers/monitors.

The MP7 and ES7 share many features, however MP7 has a better sound engine and hundreds of additional voices. I think you would have a great experience with the MP7 if you use quality studio monitors. When you say $200, plan on $200 each.


Edited by Marko in Boston (05/05/14 04:35 AM)
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA

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#2271267 - 05/05/14 05:05 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
I am wandering if it is a good idea for someone to get a stage piano with monitors for home use. I believe it defeat its purpose.

Stage pianos are created for the stage with a "stage" quality sound system.

At home someone may get a console type or a slab with built in speakers. The placement of the speakers makes all the difference.

Just my opinion

Thanks

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#2271343 - 05/05/14 08:47 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
Marko in Boston Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 1334
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
I am wandering if it is a good idea for someone to get a stage piano with monitors for home use. I believe it defeat its purpose.

Stage pianos are created for the stage with a "stage" quality sound system.

At home someone may get a console type or a slab with built in speakers. The placement of the speakers makes all the difference.

Just my opinion

Thanks



I agree with you for the most part. For example, I don't believe one would achieve the same sound, feel, and connection with studio monitors and subwoofer on a stage piano as you would with a CA95 or any high end console.

However, studio monitors beat any built in speakers IMO especially when properly placed and EQ'd.


Edited by Marko in Boston (05/05/14 08:50 AM)
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA

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#2271417 - 05/05/14 12:24 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
Marko can you advised and elaborate a bit more on that, you may save me after all!

I wanted to get a Kawai CA65, but due to the fact that I am located in a remote site, away from any Kawai dealer, plus the additional shipping cost and the fear that in the case something (big or small) happened to the CA65 will put me in real trouble to ship it to get it repaired, was holding me back.

Then I got the idea to get a MP7/MP11 instead, but again I got the impression (after reading about it) that stage pianos don't sound well at home, due to the fact that monitors/speakers are not calibrated, optimised, and placed correctly as manufactures do with their console type digital pianos, which in fact sometimes have more than 4 speakers.

What do you suggest? Do you have a personal experience with such a scenario and the outcome was close to the native sound of a Kawai 65, cool

If you have any advised I would all like to hear it from you, you may save me after all.

Thanks a lot











Edited by LarryMan (05/05/14 12:26 PM)

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#2271438 - 05/05/14 01:28 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
daz100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 169
Even for home use a stage piano with good monitors will far supersede a console type digital piano,I've owned both and the reason I ditched the console type piano is because soon you become tired of the native sounds and will want to hook up computer and run software pianos .the inbuilt speakers of any console piano will not sound good running the likes of ivory pianos and others.

If you want it to feel like an acoustic piano there is no digital substitute,you will need to buy an acoustic
_________________________
Kawai VPC1,True keys American,Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq 5.0 and Ravenscroft

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#2271443 - 05/05/14 01:46 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
Marko in Boston Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 1334
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
Marko can you advised and elaborate a bit more on that, you may save me after all!

I wanted to get a Kawai CA65, but due to the fact that I am located in a remote site, away from any Kawai dealer, plus the additional shipping cost and the fear that in the case something (big or small) happened to the CA65 will put me in real trouble to ship it to get it repaired, was holding me back.

Then I got the idea to get a MP7/MP11 instead, but again I got the impression (after reading about it) that stage pianos don't sound well at home, due to the fact that monitors/speakers are not calibrated, optimised, and placed correctly as manufactures do with their console type digital pianos, which in fact sometimes have more than 4 speakers.

What do you suggest? Do you have a personal experience with such a scenario and the outcome was close to the native sound of a Kawai 65, cool

If you have any advised I would all like to hear it from you, you may save me after all.

Thanks a lot



Hi Larry, It might be a bit above my paygrade to advise you on properly amplifying a stage piano for home. I might need a few other guys here like MacMacMac, dmd, Charles Cohen, voxpops, etc that can advise much better than myself. Or look back at some of their post regarding similar topics to this.

I can tell you that I purchase an ES7 over a year ago and thoroughly enjoy the sound from the onboard speakers. However, for no particular reason, I added a subwoofer and studio monitors in combination with on board speakers for a very full and robust sound. Not necessarily just louder, but more of a lusty enhancement to the overall experience. But beware that studio monitors are very detailed so you might spend quite a bit of time dialing in the right tone that pleases your ears. Studio monitor do not sound good right out of the box like you might expect with a home theater system. Monitors are intending to give precise detailed sound of whatever you run through them and are also very directional. Sorry, no surround sound button!

With that said, I only somewhat agree with your research that "stage pianos don't sound well at home, due to the fact that monitors/speakers are not calibrated, optimised, and placed correctly." I think (from my experience) when applied correctly and little patience you certainly can get some amazing sound via monitors. Plus, Kawai's MPs with onboard EQ's and Virtual Technician help find the right sound quickly without additional sound gear.

Not sure of anything I said actually answered your question, but if you can't commit to a console DP such as the CA65, I think you can still make the MP7 or 11 a very pleasurable experience with good monitors properly placed. 8" monitors would probably be ideal, but yes, can get pricey.

edit: not sure if you saw this thread but look at Voxpops and Lennert's set up: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2270614.html




Edited by Marko in Boston (05/05/14 01:51 PM)
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA

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#2271466 - 05/05/14 02:48 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
bolobao Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/14
Posts: 23
Are built-in speakers really on par with (or better than) a set of studio monitors?

Being a novice when it comes to audio systems, I just assumed that a decent set of monitors would blow away built-in speakers such as in the ES7. It's surprising to me that this isn't an automatic "win" for the MP7 setup.

What makes the built-in speakers so good?

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#2271486 - 05/05/14 03:35 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
maurus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 1218
Relevant question: *Where* do you want the piano sound good through speakers? If it is only in the player position, go for monitors (but then headphones are an attractive alternative with even better sound quality). If it is throughout a room, i.e. for an audience, monitors may be less attractive than other speaker setups (including on board speakers).

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#2271506 - 05/05/14 04:10 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
Thanks for the info guys,

I had the idea that since sound from monitors comes directly at you and not from inside the instrument (top, below, sides, etc.)that they are a bad idea for home use (listing and practice).

I am sure that sound setups from the market are way better comparing them directly with the on board sound system, but the manufacture has the advantage to place them inside the instrument, where they can be more effective.

Anyway my home office space is about 20x 20ft and since console is out of the equation for the moment, I will have to extent my knowledge of a combination of an MP7/11 and monitors.

Thanks again for your time and effort.....I really thank you all

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#2271532 - 05/05/14 05:00 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
Charles Cohen Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 3494
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
FWIW --

The ES7 amps are 15 watts per channel, and the loudspeakers are 8cm x 12cm (3.5" x 5", roughly). I _think_ it's one speaker per channel, since the specs don't mention a separate tweeter.

Most 5" studio monitors have more power than that, and they've all got separate tweeters. You get louder, cleaner, wider-range sound.

So between an ES7 (with built-in loudspeakers), and an MP7 with monitors (or small PA loudspeaker(s) with a much larger "sweet spot"), I'd think the MP7 would sound _much_ better.

I don't know how an MP7 + outboard speakers would sound, compared to a CA65. But the MP7's onboard EQ, Virtual Technician, and other effects would give you a way to adjust the sound to your liking.

. Charles

PS -- I picked 5" monitors for comparison because they're relatively affordable, and sound "good enough" to a lot of people in this group. My own setup uses an ElectroVoice ZXA1 (not a "studio monitor" -- a "stage monitor / PA speaker"). It has an 8" woofer, horn-loaded tweeter, and about 300 watts. I could afford one of them. The 8" woofer gives really nice bass. One could fill a 20x20 foot room nicely.
_________________________
. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker

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#2271585 - 05/05/14 07:07 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
Maralc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/14
Posts: 35
I have the same doubt and ended up going for the ES7. The main reason was that my piano is in my living room and I like the idea of it being completely unplugged. You press power and it plays. In my office/studio I have a midi controller (Novation SL MK II) connected to the Mac and synths that I seriously think of upgrading to an MP7 or a Kronos in the future.
_________________________
Korg Kronos 2 73

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#2271605 - 05/05/14 08:03 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
Yasu Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/14/14
Posts: 10
Good topic. I've had the same thoughts considering a Roand DP90e which has only 2 built in speakers. I have.a Kurz 2500xs with Mackie 8 inch 2 way monitors and a 12 inch sub but I want a simple family room turn it on and play DP

I think most of the DP console manufacturers could go a little further with multi channel amped middle tiered DPs.

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#2271606 - 05/05/14 08:03 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: daz100]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 276
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: daz100
Even for home use a stage piano with good monitors will far supersede a console type digital piano,I've owned both and the reason I ditched the console type piano is because soon you become tired of the native sounds and will want to hook up computer and run software pianos .the inbuilt speakers of any console piano will not sound good running the likes of ivory pianos and others.

If you want it to feel like an acoustic piano there is no digital substitute,you will need to buy an acoustic


This is one of my concerns with on board speakers. More and more I'm using software pianos as well as other software instruments as time goes on. Looking at feedback here it seems using these through internal speakers is a bit hit and miss but mostly miss.

I do remember the ES7's speakers sounding pretty good though, especially considering it's slab form factor.

I'm not a big fan of using headphones though. I'd much rather the sound comes out into the room. I find headphones unsatisfying despite sounding clearer than most speakers.


Edited by Enthusiast (05/05/14 08:06 PM)

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#2271739 - 05/06/14 05:32 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
Does anyone have any suggestions (for an amateur) for good equipment that will make a MP7/11 to sound to its best smile

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#2271763 - 05/06/14 07:56 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
Marko in Boston Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 1334
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
Does anyone have any suggestions (for an amateur) for good equipment that will make a MP7/11 to sound to its best smile


How much is in your budget? With that number, we can then make suggestion in your price range.
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA

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#2271770 - 05/06/14 08:14 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
I was hoping to spend around $500, the room is 20X20ft.

Just to state that I prefer quality sound than loudness.

Thanks

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#2271773 - 05/06/14 08:18 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
carellic Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/26/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Modena, Italy
Yamaha HS7, IMHO great bang for the bucks, you can find them easily online and they will fit your budget.
_________________________
Yamaha G2 (to be upgraded), Kawai MP11, Kawai MP7, Yamaha Motif XF6, Nord C2D

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#2271788 - 05/06/14 09:13 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
lophiomys Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 628
Loc: Austria, EU
Personally I am looking at the Adam Audio F7 for 300 EUR a piece.
In other posts on this forum the KRK Rokit RP8 (or RP6) have been recommended, which should be closer to the given budget.

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#2271790 - 05/06/14 09:14 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
Yasu Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/14/14
Posts: 10
I wonder how a DP would sound through a soundbar system (an integrated speaker/amp arrangement normally used to improve sound quality of flat panel TVs ilo a home theater system with a receiver and separate speakers)?

One in particular (the Pioneer SB23W) was designed by Andrew Jones and seems to get very good reviews for it's music reproduction. It comes with a wireless subwoofer. It's one of the better rated soundbars on CNET.COM

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#2271795 - 05/06/14 09:41 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: Yasu]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3223
Loc: Wales
Originally Posted By: Yasu
I wonder how a DP would sound through a soundbar system (an integrated speaker/amp arrangement normally used to improve sound quality of flat panel TVs ilo a home theater system with a receiver and separate speakers)?


I think there is a problem of latency with some soundbar systems. I don't have direct experience, but I considered using something like that as a portable rig for personal monitoring, and then heard about the latency issue.
_________________________
"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015

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#2271797 - 05/06/14 09:47 AM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
lophiomys Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 628
Loc: Austria, EU
I don't know how well this Pioneer SB23W performs, but the specs look promising.

From my experience with Adam A5 Monitors (5") together with an Adam Sub 7, it is very hard to connect the sub to the lower frequencies of the desktop speakers, in order to get a natural music reproduction, especially for classic/jazz. (Same for a JVC home theatre surround system I have tested).
On the other hand the combination Adam A5/Sub 7 works fine for computer games and movie sound effects.

In hindsight I appreciated the preceding advice by the salesperson in the music store, i.e. to buy bigger speakers which would reproduce down to real 40Hz (or close) and avoid the use of a separate sub woofer.
HTH

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#2271867 - 05/06/14 12:44 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
Just now got the time to view your settings.

Voxpops:

Really nice. The piano stand is custom made?
It looks very neat ..well done.

MaxPiano: Very nice setup too...impressive job.

Thanks for the info, you give me nice examples to follow.

I hope you don't mind smile

Both using Yamaha?


Thanks lot

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#2271873 - 05/06/14 01:04 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3223
Loc: Wales
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
Voxpops:

Really nice. The piano stand is custom made?
It looks very neat ..well done.

Thanks, but it's a bit of a cheat, really! I had a Roland KSC-44 stand for my FP-50, and with the Roland stand being way more expensive than similar ones by other manufacturers (why?), no one wanted to buy it secondhand. So I went to Home Depot, bought a Rubbermaid 6' x 1' shelf, chopped it down to size, reinforced it with aluminum angle pieces (as the shelf simply sags even without the weight of a piano on it), and used the off-cut as a stop for the pedals. The piano sits a little high, but I raised my stool a little higher to compensate. I could probably rest the piano directly onto the Roland stand without the shelf (as it's almost exactly the same length), but it would be a little insecure without bolts to attach it.

Quote:
Both using Yamaha?

I'm using Yamaha HS80Ms.


Edited by voxpops (05/06/14 01:08 PM)
_________________________
"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015

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#2271894 - 05/06/14 02:06 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
You did a good job.

Are you happy with the setting and the overall sound generated ?

Did you considered an MP11 instead of the MP7?

You mentioned..This is not an immediate "wow" piano, like some of the silky-smooth and warm, higher-end Rolands....

Can you elaborate on that please.

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#2271904 - 05/06/14 02:34 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3223
Loc: Wales
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
You did a good job.

Thank you.

Quote:
Are you happy with the setting and the overall sound generated ?

The overall sound quality is excellent - very clear and detailed. As for "the setting," I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Quote:

Did you considered an MP11 instead of the MP7?

For about 10 seconds! While I would love to have an action that mimics an acoustic grand, I didn't want to pay $1,000 more for something with a fixed sound engine that will doubtless be improved upon in 3 or 4 years, nor can I cope with 70 lbs when I have to move the piano.

Quote:
You mentioned..This is not an immediate "wow" piano, like some of the silky-smooth and warm, higher-end Rolands....

Can you elaborate on that please.

The lush Roland sound is very inviting - warm and sonorous - when you first play it, although it can sound a little muddy under certain conditions. On the other hand, a number of us have spoken of the Kawai sound being a little brittle or harsh out of the box. However, Kawai pianos also have a crystal-clear sound, and there is sufficient adjustment on the MP7 to dial in something appealing. In the end, no one digital piano is "perfect," and you have to choose based on your preferences and needs. I think the MP7 is going to be good for me, musically, as it will force me to really work on articulation, as every nuance is clearly audible, and also the sound (particularly the Jazz Grand) is growing on me as I get used to it.
_________________________
"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015

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#2271913 - 05/06/14 02:57 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
LarryMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 112
I really thank you (and all the people) for taking the time and answered my questions.

By setting, I mean the placement of the piano/speakers and the overall sound experience with your equipment.

Have a GREAT day

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#2271937 - 05/06/14 03:29 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: LarryMan]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3223
Loc: Wales
Originally Posted By: LarryMan
I really thank you (and all the people) for taking the time and answered my questions.

You're welcome!
Quote:
By setting, I mean the placement of the piano/speakers and the overall sound experience with your equipment.

Ah, I see. It's not perfect. I could do with more space behind the speakers (they're a bit too near the wall), but generally it's fine. The HS Yamaha's don't produce a "pretty" sound, but for mid-range speakers they're reasonably flat and faithful to what's being sent from the sound source. It will be interesting to try the Kawai with my normal gig rig which includes a sub-woofer. I'd also like to check it out with Electro-Voice ZXA1s, if that opportunity comes along in the future.
_________________________
"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015

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#2271954 - 05/06/14 04:02 PM Re: Kawai ES7 vs. MP7 + $200 speakers [Re: bolobao]
kapelli Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 799
Loc: Poland
LarryMan,
Take into the considaration, that a slab DP in fact takes exactly the same amount of place as the console. If you add speakers - unless you put them on piano, your place usage will be much bigger. If you don't need the possibility od hiding it behing you wardrobe, there is no sense for you to buy the stage piano and speakers.
You will get only ugliness with it, and, probably, you will never use the dozens of sound correction thing which are in stages pianos.

You know, do not be mistaken by the "having more place because of lacking of the stand". Keyboard dimensions are the same, so you have no place saved. Console piano in small stand like ES7 or ROland FP80 can get you more space due to it's open construction, hopwever, the real place is still the same.

And you got a lot of ugly cables behind it and you need a few cm for cables in the back.

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