Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Pristine 1995 Petrof PII grand but thin bass tone-any help??

HI everyone-
I feel like I'm getting close to finding my piano- Played a very nice 1995 Petrof PII 7ft 9" at a dealership the other day- Pristine condition. Loved everything about the piano, except a few small things- wanted to run these by you to see if something can hopefully be done.

1) The main thing- and I think this is just a personal preference- The tone, especially in the bass, sounds a bit "pointed" or thin if that makes sense. THe piano has great clarity and focus of tone, probably due to this thinness, but it's almost a bit too much for me. In fact, to my ears, the treble range could probably also benefit from a slightly more rounded tone, though it is definitely more noticeable in the bass. My question is, can this be done with either voicing, reshaping hammers, even changing strings? Maybe the hammers have simply hardened over the years? Could the bass bridge be loose? I thought maybe it's just Petrof, but I compared the tone to a 9ft Petrof right across from it (already sold but still in the shop)- I know the sizes are different, but I could definitely hear that the tone in the bass notes on the 9ft were more "round". I guess I'm hoping that something can be done, and it's not serious, like perhaps the crown is gone... (I will have a tech examine for that.)

More info to help you here:
The piano does have the QRS record and playback system installed, along with a mute rail. I've heard somewhere that the presence of a mute rail can affect the tone or sustain- is that true? Could this be a factor?

2) I noticed that in the bass, certain notes had less sustain than others- for example- F#2 and Db3 seemed like the sustain died down quicker than when I played other notes around them. I don't know what would cause this.

3) The highest 2 octaves were especially bright- I'm guessing that voicing can positively alter this?

4) When I played very loudly on the piano in conjunction with using the sustain pedal, sometimes I would get a metallic sound out of some of the notes- the salesperson said perhaps the strings need to be leveled- does this sound right?

Thanks! Any suggestions / advice here would be greatly appreciated.

It sounds to me like 1) and 3) and 4) are likely voicing issues. 2) could be a damper that's out of alignment (touching the string slightly even when raised). String leveling would be another possible explanation for 2) and 4).

When you refer to a mute rail, are you referring to strip of felt that comes between the hammers and the strings? I don't know that I've ever seen that on a grand. On an upright, it should not affect the tone provided it is installed properly.

Is the piano new? Also, it goes without saying that the best option is to have a piano tech that you trust come look at the piano with you, specifically to investigate these concerns.

As you hear often around here, before signing anything have another tech evaluate it and have certain issues address before purchase. My experience with Petrof is that they have a tendency to be a little harder in tone. It sounds as if this may be a used instrument. Certainly the condition of the hammers and the regulation is everything, and needs to be evaluated prior to discerning any tonal issue. It is a bit unfair comparing a 9' to it as the scale, especially in the bass, is different. With work I've seen larger Petrof's turn in to decent instruments. Any perceived sustain issues can result to regulation issues or damper regulation. The mute rail will only affect tone when engaged... much like the practice pedal (felt mute rail) of console pianos.

Treble brightness can be tamed.

Extraneous noises can be from a multitude of things, not necessarily related to strings being level.

Again a good tech to evaluate is absolutely essential.

As with any piano which is nearly 20 years old, all of your concerns should be discussed with a competent and qualified technician who is completely independent of the store. This is shortly after the fall of the Soviet era and there can be wide variance in quality. Again, a detailed inspection is essential.

Find out which action is in the piano. It could be Petrof built, Detoa, or Petrof/Renner. Hidden problems can lurk and the actions, or action parts, which were built during the Soviet era should be avoided.

By the early to mid 2000's, the Petrofs became fine instruments. Judgment needs to made in reference to the time period. Remember, the Estonias from the same era are nothing like we think of today.

Thanks Marty-
I will find out which action- I believe the salesperson said Renner but I will confirm with a tech.
I know earlier Petrof's have their problems, but I thought (or at least am hoping!) 1995 is a late enough model. Is 1995 still a questionable year?

Thanks for the feedback SM- yes, it is a 1995


I may be using the wrong terminology- it is the metal rail that runs under the strings and just above the hammers that can be adjusted so that you can play the piano keys but the hammers won't strike the strings- I think it's called something like "silent play"??


I'm not sure I understand what you mean- can you expand on this?

Awesome, that's what I'm hoping- hoping it's not something more "serious" that can't be remedied like a loss of crown or something... I'll have a tech examine for sure


I might not be using the right term- it's the metal rail that's just above the hammers that, when activated, keeps the hammers from striking the strings so that you can still play the piano using headphones


The piano is actually a 1995

I would certainly examine the piano very closely, even things like how the legs are attached. Remember, the USSR collapsed in 1991 and that is a very short time for a turn-around and full rebirth.

Ok thanks

Different makes went about the details a little differently, but yes silent touch/mute in effect stops the hammers. Apparently this one is fully equipped for midi and a tone generator. Since it is a player with some years on it, barring quality issues mentioned by Marty, its probably due for work... Perhaps new hammers and other things. It again get and independent tech evaluation.

Truly, we can speculate til the cows come home.

There is a certain thinness to these pianos sound that I have never liked. Changing hammers will not eliminate this. Voicing will not eliminate this. It is caused by structural issues and materials.

It can be masked by lighter, softer hammers-but if the thin tone grates on you-keep looking for a piano that doesn't have that tone character.

HI Ed-
thanks for the input


Do you mean the PII 7ft 9" model specifically, or Petrof in general?

thanks

Thank you

Phrygian,
The newer models seem to have less of the thin sound. But I haven't heard them all thats for sure!

Good to know, thanks Ed

Hi Marty- just getting back to you re: action-
the action is Renner- in one of the photos the dealer sent me, you can clearly see the "Renner- Made in Germany" sticker/stamp on there (whatever it is!)
So hopefully that's a good sign. A tech is going to examine tomorrow. I'll keep you posted

Yes but this is a Petrof Renner action
Whippens are a little taller, shanks and whippens are from Renner and Petrof have their own brass and rails (I suspect they produced agrafes and capstans /metal parts for Renner anyway so it is simple for them)

Better than the Detoa action certainly anyway.

Are the hammers very tall ? I thought that the Petrof models where redesigned around 2000 years, not as early 1995. You may be could ask them about that.

I would take care of how the touch is and how tall the hammers are.

The thinner tone in basses can be changed with different bass strings probably. I notice it more for the smaller models and before 2000. The larger grand models recently have a warm colored tone in basses, and if the touch was a little more dynamical they would be concert instruments.

Regards

HI Olek- thanks so much for the response. I've responded below:


I didn't think to look at hammer size, but I could check



Actually, I really liked the touch- Petrof seems to have a heavier touch, which I prefer


I'm GLAD to hear you say that- This makes me feel better about it- I am really hoping that either the hammers or strings are the case. The bass isn't horrible sounding, but just lack a certain umph! and depth - I suppose they go "thud" a little. If I were to picture the way it sounds, using a circle to describe the tone of a bass note, the circle is rather small- focused but more like a point, not really taking up much space- I would like the "circle" of the tone to have a larger circumference, more presence, if that makes any sense. Hopefully this description = a solution. I really like the piano

Olek- one more thought-

Also, I've been reading about Ari Isaac "Profundo" bass strings here on PW- they seem to be regarded highly- If it turns out to be the bass strings that may need replacing on the PII, would you recommend these or a different brand?

thanks again

Of course I am far, and order bass strings in Germany from Hellerbass.

Good bass strings make a difference, but if the soundboard is too stiff at that place it can be limited.

Possibly in fact the soundboard reacts too much on the bass side so the tone is long but much energy have been used immediately, so it is long and thin.The original bass strings where not very good, also.