Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
65 registered members (AdrianR, ando, anotherscott, AprilE, Bambers, BachToTheFuture, 15 invisible), 779 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
#2272959 - 05/08/14 06:01 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A454.7]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by A443
With regards to slow pull vs. impact, I'd like to point out that the piano makes a difference.

In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.

On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.


Hi, I agree that theoretically it is better to have not too much space between coils and the block.

I am unsure it would give me much trouble with slow pulling, as as soon I feel the pin moves I balance the tension between the pin and the wire, so in that case I could lower the bending , as I want the pin to be balanced by the 75 K of tension of the wire .
With the hammer at 15:00 the force used is acting very directly to the string . It may not be that difficult to allow the string to bring the tuning pin straight.

So yes the pin will bow before moving, and yes if it raise too much the pitch it can be a problem .
It may be necessary to really have the hammer at 13:00 to finish the job.


Last edited by Olek; 05/09/14 06:25 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#2273140 - 05/09/14 06:19 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Slow pull can and does work on high pins with much deformation.

Consider a pitch window where we can affect pitch without moving the foot.

The desired pitch must be centered but somewhat toward the bottom of that window, in order to withstand hard blows.

High pins just have a larger window.

The location of each window is determined by the pin angle.

If the desired pitch is too high or too low, the window must be moved.

The only way to do that is to move the foot. You don't even have to play the note, just turn the pin until you feel the foot move.

On some pianos with tight pin blocks, it may be difficult to get the foot to move a small enough amount. That's where impact comes in. It's not about moving the whole string at once. The whole string does not move as a single unit, in my opinion. How else is it possible to affect an impact on a pin, moving the foot, yet having no pitch change, which is possible with long NSL?

Simple physics.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 05/09/14 06:24 AM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2273145 - 05/09/14 06:34 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,357
prout Offline
3000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,357
Southwestern Ontario
Help me out here. I understand and experience the window of pitch variation where the foot does not move, but I don't understand how the pitch remains stable, once placed in that window. I have assumed that some portion of the NSL segments is storing unequalised tension, or that the pin is experiencing torque that it has not yet released. Is this the wrong way to look at it?

#2273150 - 05/09/14 07:01 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
All that extra strtch in the pin and wire NSL have to be undone, but not totally, the wire can keep a little more tension.
Then the pin stressed the other way to resist the tension in the NSL.
when set to the max the pin will hardly allow the pitch to lower.

It applies the same tension to the NSL than the NSL applies to the pīn.

Both of those tensions are a little above the one of the speaking length.

Is it clearer?

If bowing/bending the pin befor it moves raise the tension opf the string way too much it can be a hassle, but usually the added tension when raising and bowing the pin helps to put back the pin in place securedly. W
while raising the tuner feel how much torque and stress the pin accepts, and how much stress is necessary to have the wire moving at the bearing point.

Those informations are "recorded" and used when setting the pin.
But then the window of location where the pin is stable is larger than one think, simply the moment where it is all optimum is itself very reduced. (optimum = very firm pin with the bowed posture keeping energy availeable)

Regards




Last edited by Olek; 05/09/14 07:07 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2273172 - 05/09/14 08:22 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,357
prout Offline
3000 Post Club Member
prout  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,357
Southwestern Ontario
Thanks Isaac. Yes, that is more clear.

#2273420 - 05/09/14 06:41 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Toni Goldener]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 715
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 715
Originally Posted by Toni Goldener
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Nobody has really answered my question. What do you do to reduce ear and joint damage, assuming you do not use ear plugs?


I sometimes use the forearm smash, like Stephen Brady, ( with earplugs ), after tuning mf...

Touch up what is necessary, play a piece of music to reconcile with the piano and the piano owner


Thanks for this Toni!


Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2273519 - 05/10/14 12:02 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: prout]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by prout
Help me out here. I understand and experience the window of pitch variation where the foot does not move, but I don't understand how the pitch remains stable, once placed in that window. I have assumed that some portion of the NSL segments is storing unequalised tension, or that the pin is experiencing torque that it has not yet released. Is this the wrong way to look at it?


No, I think you've got it.

Basically, within the window, there is a pitch that equates to equalized tension across the bearing points. It is in the lower (higher?) middle so that hard blows don't cause a shift or equalizing, which would change the pitch in the window to one that is more stable.

Isaac showed a good video where he bangs on the hammer, toward him on an upright. The pitch is high enough in the window that the banging doesn't change it. If the pitch drops slightly (which it did in Isaac's video) just move the pin foot slightly to the right (which Isaac did) then wiggle the pin to settle the pitch (which will now be higher than the previous settled pitch) into the window where it will be more stable. Turn the foot too much and the pitch will rise with hard blows.

Hope that's clear.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2273606 - 05/10/14 09:55 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I want to add something Toni explained lately : when the NSL an pin have been stressed, releasing the pressure on the lever install yet a firm founation for future settling, the pin sort of jump back, most of the twisting is undone immediately.

depending of the block of course , but basically the foot of the pin is grabbing in its final position, all we have to do is work for the remaining NSL / Pin balance, and make the pin use the friction of its "bed" higher in the hole.

Regards

Last edited by Olek; 05/10/14 11:30 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2273637 - 05/10/14 11:23 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Unless there's too much. Then pitch goes sharp.
NSL tension is too high in tension band. Maybe inside static tension band, but outside dynamic friction band.

Or another way to think of it; too high in the pitch window.

Actually this may be a completely different mechanism that must be in harmony with NSL tension/dynamic tension band analysis.

Analysis is a poor term. Sensibility is better.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2273667 - 05/10/14 12:41 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Unless there's too much. Then pitch goes sharp.
NSL tension is too high in tension band. Maybe inside static tension band, but outside dynamic friction band.

Or another way to think of it; too high in the pitch window.



That is how some pianos with too much friction can be tuned, by allowing large tension in the NSL, and playing strong enough to have the tension pass the bearing to the string.

Some 1990 Schimmel grands comes to mind, nothing make the speaking length move, impact or slow pulling or even giggling/waving.

Anyway in the basic tuning technique, (Yamaha instruction) the NSL is stressed, an the playing hand is the one that really "tunes" the string, by playing repeatedly until control is taken over the speaking length .


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2273713 - 05/10/14 02:43 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A454.7]  
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 724
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member
Grotriman  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 724
New York City
Originally Posted by A443
With regards to slow pull vs. impact, I'd like to point out that the piano makes a difference.

In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.

On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.


Agree - and related to the scale design. The Grotrian 192 for instance has a lot of wire between the pin and the first bearing point on the plate (two octaves starting middle C and up) and a slow pull will put a lot of tension in the non-speaking length. Multiple fast blows when letting the pitch down to target is key to success for these. My Ibach is not at all the same.

Of course the larger diameter strings that are below middle C don't stretch as much at all between the pin and the first bearing point.


Regards,

Grotriman
#2273714 - 05/10/14 02:47 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Too much playing = hearing loss. This is the point of my post.

How one can get stability without playing hard or excessively, and without having to use ear plugs.

Granted, I suppose there are some pianos where hard playing is required. But it can be done without, on most.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2273719 - 05/10/14 03:14 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

How one can get stability without playing hard or excessively, and without having to use ear plugs.


Simple: insist piano manufacturers make better pianos. We should NOT have to bang in the descant to ensure stability.


Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com
#2273780 - 05/10/14 07:31 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A454.7]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by A443
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

How one can get stability without playing hard or excessively, and without having to use ear plugs.


Simple: insist piano manufacturers make better pianos. We should NOT have to bang in the descant to ensure stability.


Thankfully, they are the minority.

Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 05/10/14 07:32 PM.

Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
3/4 question
by iamanders. 12/16/17 07:14 AM
A trouble spot question
by carolinakeys. 12/16/17 12:45 AM
Happy Birthday in the style of Chopin. WOW!!
by Strat. 12/15/17 11:13 PM
4Front TruePianos - 40% off
by Max_Forte. 12/15/17 06:19 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,293
Posts2,679,557
Members89,273
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0