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Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270163 05/02/14 11:14 AM
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My homeschooled students have typically been some of my best students. The parents are always supportive and encouraging and the students seem to have more time to devote to piano.

The only problem I've encountered with some parents is that they usually end up bringing the rest of their kiddos with them to the lesson, which is then disruptive. And, in my case, since I require the parent to be at their child's lesson and participate, child-care issues for the siblings can be problematic.


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Re: Home Schoolers
AZNpiano #2270313 05/02/14 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I wish I can teach more homeschooled kids!

In my area, there are quite a few families that choose to homeschool their kids due to religious reasons. There's a limited selection of religious schools (sometimes it's just a different denomination), so the parents opted to teach their own kids at home. They are some of the most respectful, diligent, and intelligent children. A few of my colleagues teach homeschooled kids, and they have nothing but great things to say.


This is how homschoolers usually are. These are the true homschoolers I call them. The ones that started homeschooling because they wanted to raise children different from those of the world. That's the homeschooler I am. I am the eldest of eight children who are all homeschooled, and everyone is always complimenting my mom on what a great job she has done in raising us.

I totally understand though what you are saying about some homeschooled parents. I have discovered two new trends amongst homeschooling parents:
1. Free-to-be-you-and-me.
2. Show-time!

The first let their kids run all over the place, get highly offended if you tell them not to, and are ultimately reeeeealy flaky! I know exactly what you mean about these kinds! I taught an art class at a homeschool co-op and had a really hard time with this one mom in particular. Her son was disruptive in the classroom, ignored my lessons, and would not co-operate at all. When I brought this issue to the mom, she was offended and told me that she would have to find another art class which would allow him to "freely express himself". This was extremely annoying, and I definitely feel for you!

The second types are show parents who homeschool solely for the purpose of their child becoming a super star. I have met several homeschooling parents of this sort who let their kids run wild because they are only concerned with the child becoming a future celebrity of acting, music, modeling, etc.

But these two classes do not make up for all of homeschooling though! Far from it! There are a lot of wonderful homeschooling parents who are disciplined and yet very flexible. My professor (5th place winner in Van Cliburn) has accepted only three students for private lessons in his career - and all three of them (including me) were homeschooled. Why? Because they have flexible schedule, are extremely intelligent and unique and have been brought up properly by wonderful parents.

Hope this helps you figured out homeschoolers. Please do not stereotype us based on a few encounters! We are definately not all like that! smile


*Fiona*

"If music be food of love, play on!"
P.S. I am in love with Beethoven, infatuated with Liszt, and crazy about Chopin!
And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p
Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270430 05/03/14 01:58 AM
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BrainCramp,

It's too bad that you've had such an experience with homeschoolers. I believe that homeschooling never works when it's done because parents think they're better than school teachers (emphasis on the teachers). Homeschooling works when parents want what's best for their kids, this really is the only time when it works.
But if you look at the facts, the statistics, on average, homeschoolers beat school kids on every level (academic, social, personality, every single one). The reason for this is because on average, these parents want what's best for their kids. They care about their kids.
You'll notice that quite a number of school kids come out ok. You'll notice that in almost EVERY SINGLE CASE, it's a result of the parents, not the school.
Take an average school. All the kids get taught and brought up exactly the same way. The only thing that separates the good kids from the bad is their parents.
This is why homeschooling works, because it's the parents that are willing to put in the time and effort, they can easily out perform a school in every area.
School is inefficient in just about every way. It's literally not much more than a babysitting service!
As for teaching academically, the quick kids are held up by the slowest kids in the class
As for socialization, it's limited to kids their age! Not much variety!
As for behaviour, well, everybody knows how well schools do with this smile
And on just about every other level, it's limited.


When people first hear of homeschoolers, the three main problems with it they come up with are these:
1. Parents aren't qualified
2. It's leaves the possibility for child abuse/neglect in education
3. Lack of socialization

For the first one, it actually doesn't really matter smile
In a school, they don't care if the child learns anything, they just have to make sure they taught the kids.
In homeschool, the parents make sure the kids understand and are learning (after all, then teacher student ratio is amazing!), they can put individual time into each student. As long as the parent has a good curriculum, they can simply teach what's in the books and learn it at the same time! (Don't bother arguing that this is stupid, it's tried and tested to work far better than schools)
In my opinion, the first is never a problem (maybe in like, 1/100 situations)

For the second, this is quite true, but it's not as if kids aren't abused when they're in school situation. Yes, it's true that child abuse could be more serious when they're homeschooled, but the sort of parents who will abuse their children normally aren't the sorts who will homeschool their kids.

For the third, this is a common problem, it's very important for homeschooling parents to be aware that this can occur (and often does). But it's definitely not unavoidable, it can also be done much better than schools (which, are previously mentions, are very limited in the scope of the socialisation)



As for the OP,

Those reasons that you mentioned for homeschooling are rare, the main one's have been outlined by other posts smile


Quote
That's been my experience with other home school kids - no behavior issues but very spotty academic preparation. Sometimes it limited them, sometimes it didn't matter because they did so well in that one area they were interested in. I don't see why it would affect piano lessons at all.

Like with any schooling system, there are those who do badly and those who do well. Homeschoolers just happen to have more at both ends of the spectrum and less in the middle smile
My brother (homeschooled his whole life) is currently in university and getting High Distinctions in almost every subject. I (also homeschooled my whole life) am studying IT and scoring perfectly on every assignment (not bragging or anything smile )

Last edited by AtomicBond; 05/03/14 02:08 AM.
Re: Home Schoolers
AtomicBond #2270450 05/03/14 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AtomicBond
Take an average school. All the kids get taught and brought up exactly the same way. The only thing that separates the good kids from the bad is their parents.
Originally Posted by AtomicBond
School is inefficient in just about every way. It's literally not much more than a babysitting service!
As for teaching academically, the quick kids are held up by the slowest kids in the class
As for socialization, it's limited to kids their age! Not much variety!
As for behaviour, well, everybody knows how well schools do with this smile
And on just about every other level, it's limited.

Originally Posted by AtomicBond
In a school, they don't care if the child learns anything, they just have to make sure they taught the kids.
Wow, those are some cynical views about the school system! Of course I don't know much about the education system in the US (if that's where you are) but these generalisations were certainly not things I concluded from my years of school teaching in Australia. All kids don't get taught in the same way. And some of the most dedicated and innovative people I've ever met were teaching in schools in difficult areas and producing amazing results in the lives of children, some of whose parents were worse than neglectful.







Du holde Kunst...
Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270459 05/03/14 06:42 AM
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Same here curra...

I don't get how my comment lead to this (pretty clever, if I may add) illustration... :-/

Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270469 05/03/14 07:33 AM
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There are good public schools and awful public schools, so let's not lump every public school together.

Some of my piano students attend one of the "top" public schools in the state of California. If you speak to them, you'll see how many incompetent teachers work there. Those inept teachers are protected by tenure, so they can't be fired. Parents end up having to hire private tutors so that their kids will actually learn something. And of course when they take standardized tests, these well-tutored children score well, which makes the school "look good."

I worked for many years in a low-performing district. The reason the school doesn't perform well is because the parents don't care. Back-to-School Night? Maybe 4 parents will show up. Open House? The campus is a ghost town. Behavior is not the main issue at my school; it's apathy. Parents don't care. Kids don't care. Administrators try hard to care (really, they tried, to the nth degree). Most of my teaching colleagues are superior teachers with amazing credentials--almost every single one of us had a M.A. degree or higher--and most of us were under 40, some freshly out of grad school.

In other words, my school's faculty can probably out-teach the teachers at the "top" school. We fight an uphill battle against apathy. The "top" school is buffered by a lineup of private tutors and after-school enrichment classes, and by parents making $200k a year who want to make sure their kids do well.


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Re: Home Schoolers
AZNpiano #2270472 05/03/14 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano

I worked for many years in a low-performing district. The reason the school doesn't perform well is because the parents don't care. Back-to-School Night? Maybe 4 parents will show up.


That's a little judgmental. Most of those parents do likely care, but are overwhelmed by the challenges of life.

My own children went to elementary school briefly in one of those districts. Those years they were the only children in their class with two parents. The ONLY ones! And that single parent had no educational background themselves, did not understand the difficulties and importance, could not help with homework, and were drained by working several menial jobs trying to make enough to pay the rent. When the school wanted $2 each to offset recorder purchase for a music class (no, the school didn't have any money either) only one child came up with the funds. (Mine - I ended up buying recorders for the entire class just so it wouldn't be cancelled)

I do agree with you that not having intelligent educated affluent supportive parents involved with the school is a HUGE part of the problem. But that doesn't equate to saying they don't care. Many of them are doing the best they can.


gotta go practice
Re: Home Schoolers
AtomicBond #2270478 05/03/14 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by AtomicBond
But if you look at the facts, the statistics, on average, homeschoolers beat school kids on every level (academic, social, personality, every single one). The reason for this is because on average, these parents want what's best for their kids.


That's a highly misleading "average." Really good statistics do not exist. For example, on the college entrance exams (SAT and ACT) the average of the home schoolers is a tiny bit higher than that of the school kids. But, only 2% of homeschoolers actually take these tests, whereas most school kids do. So what we really have is the top 2% of homeschoolers being roughly the same as the average school kid. And that average, though a tiny bit higher, is not enough to get into a good college.

You can't find that number, by the way; I backed into it by looking at a number of sources for how many kids home school and how many take the SAT. So there's obviously an error band, I could be off by a bit. But not an order of magnitude.

But there's another implication to it. A homeschooler doesn't have a class rank or a grade point average. If they would like to attend college taking these tests is obligatory. If only 2% do, that means something about homeschooling is discouraging the college process. I see that as a problem in an increasingly technological world. Colleges see it too, many of them have special outreach programs trying to bring in more homeschoolers.

If teaching doesn't require any skill, and any parent can do just as good a job, why don't parents teach piano, too? (I do think there are some school districts where education or safety is so bad that any parent COULD do a better job - but that hasn't been true for most of the schools I've encountered.)

One of my concerns with homeschooling, and the reason i wouldn't have done it, is that teaching like any skill develops over time with experience, trial and error, and lots of mistakes. A young teacher however prepared does not teach piano or calculus as well as the experienced master teacher (although they may teach as well as a burned out older teacher who didn't learn along the way). With your own kids you only get one shot.


gotta go practice
Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270580 05/03/14 01:31 PM
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Quote
But, only 2% of homeschoolers actually take these tests, whereas most school kids do. So what we really have is the top 2% of homeschoolers being roughly the same as the average school kid. And that average, though a tiny bit higher, is not enough to get into a good college.

I'm missing the information that says that only the top homeschoolers take the tests. Would you mind pointing out that part? (thx smile ) Secondly, this would only seem important if you believe such tests to be meaningful - many educators would not be of that opinion. Is it even pertinent in regards to homeschooled students taking piano lessons?

Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270592 05/03/14 02:23 PM
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This thread isn't what I thought it would be about. I was hoping it would contain advice about how to get homeschoolers as students. I would LOVE to find some homeschooling family (or more than one) with a bunch of kids who could come to lessons at, say, 11:00 a.m., while other kids are in school. With soon-to-be four kids of my own, after school is very busy, and teaching more than a few students then is becoming difficult.


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Re: Home Schoolers
Brinestone #2270601 05/03/14 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Brinestone
This thread isn't what I thought it would be about. I was hoping it would contain advice about how to get homeschoolers as students. I would LOVE to find some homeschooling family (or more than one) with a bunch of kids who could come to lessons at, say, 11:00 a.m., while other kids are in school. With soon-to-be four kids of my own, after school is very busy, and teaching more than a few students then is becoming difficult.

We homeschooled for roughly 10 years. There was one newsletter with a loose organization around it, and a few actual groups. Homeschoolers look for activities for the kids, which includes individual lessons and group classes. Maybe you can research your area (google) for such groups as your starting point. One of my sons took music lessons and it was indeed at one of those earlier time slots.

Re: Home Schoolers
Brinestone #2270710 05/03/14 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Brinestone
This thread isn't what I thought it would be about. I was hoping it would contain advice about how to get homeschoolers as students. I would LOVE to find some homeschooling family (or more than one) with a bunch of kids who could come to lessons at, say, 11:00 a.m., while other kids are in school. With soon-to-be four kids of my own, after school is very busy, and teaching more than a few students then is becoming difficult.


Contact a local home school association. There are some great ones around that assist parents who may be lacking in certain subjects but strong in others, and so they trade teaching the kids or assist parents in need of help.

I think there amy be value in offering a piano class to homeschool kids that they can earn credit for (just by keeping good records of what they learned and when they attended). Kids can get "credit" for private lessons, too, in the same manner, but it may be more affordable for families to offer a class. The nice thing about a homeschool class is that the kids don't all have to be the same age - many of them are accustomed to working alongside children of other ages within their family or homeschool group.


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Re: Home Schoolers
sonataplayer #2270715 05/03/14 08:06 PM
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Why piano in a classroom situation, when it's more effective privately? All homeschoolers that I knew sought private lessons when it came to music.

Re: Home Schoolers
Morodiene #2270768 05/03/14 10:53 PM
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Because
Originally Posted by Morodiene

...it may be more affordable for families to offer a class.


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Re: Home Schoolers
Morodiene #2270776 05/03/14 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

I think there amy be value in offering a piano class to homeschool kids that they can earn credit for (just by keeping good records of what they learned and when they attended). Kids can get "credit" for private lessons, too, in the same manner, but it may be more affordable for families to offer a class.

When you write of "credit", is this something official that follows the kids when it is time to apply for university, or perhaps reintegrate into the school system? Is this something in the United States federally, or particular to certain states?

In Canada when we transitioned back into the school system, note was taken of private lessons, but that was through a simple statement by the teacher. However, the RCM exams did turn into direct high school credits that go into the records.

Re: Home Schoolers
keystring #2270862 05/04/14 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
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But, only 2% of homeschoolers actually take these tests, whereas most school kids do. So what we really have is the top 2% of homeschoolers being roughly the same as the average school kid. And that average, though a tiny bit higher, is not enough to get into a good college.

I'm missing the information that says that only the top homeschoolers take the tests. Would you mind pointing out that part? (thx smile )


That 2% number is never reported. I derived it from several sources. It's based on the numbers reported taking the tests, and the numbers reported homeschooling from multiple sources. It would not be easy for me to recreate where I got it - the forum I originally discussed it on is not archived.


Quote
Secondly, this would only seem important if you believe such tests to be meaningful - many educators would not be of that opinion. Is it even pertinent in regards to homeschooled students taking piano lessons?


No, this isn't what I mean. Whether i believe the tests to be meaningful or not, they are how you get into college. If you are not taking the tests at all, you are not interested in college. If a large group of people are not interested in college, there is something about that group that is discouraging kids from that direction. Of course college isn't for everybody, but any systematic discouragement is going to affect those kids that should go.


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Re: Home Schoolers
keystring #2270886 05/04/14 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring

When you write of "credit", is this something official that follows the kids when it is time to apply for university, or perhaps reintegrate into the school system? Is this something in the United States federally, or particular to certain states?


School and home school requirements vary by state. In my state, parents are required to submit an affidavit stating that required subjects will be taught for the same amount of time as in public schools.


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Re: Home Schoolers
TimR #2270896 05/04/14 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by keystring
Quote
But, only 2% of homeschoolers actually take these tests, whereas most school kids do. So what we really have is the top 2% of homeschoolers being roughly the same as the average school kid. And that average, though a tiny bit higher, is not enough to get into a good college.

I'm missing the information that says that only the top homeschoolers take the tests. Would you mind pointing out that part? (thx smile )


That 2% number is never reported. I derived it from several sources. It's based on the numbers reported taking the tests, and the numbers reported homeschooling from multiple sources. It would not be easy for me to recreate where I got it - the forum I originally discussed it on is not archived.

I was not questioning the 2%. You stated that the top students got tested. Given the individual nature of homeschooling, I cannot see these various families getting together, determining which students among them were the top 2% (how could they?) and then having only the top 2% be tested. It is more likely that those hypothetical 2% represent random students of all kinds of levels and abilities, who happened to decide to take these tests. It would be 2%, but not the top 2%.

Quote
No, this isn't what I mean. Whether i believe the tests to be meaningful or not, they are how you get into college. If you are not taking the tests at all, you are not interested in college. ...

I don't know how the system is in the US, of course. Over here there are various means of getting into college. At the time we homeschooled the systems were finding various ways of contending with the fact of homeschooling. However, it should be remembered that many homeschoolers go back into the system at high school age. Their entrance to college is then governed by their grades during high school, and this is swallowed up in your statistics.

Actually, instead of hypothesizing what percentage of homeschooled kids might be interested in going to college, it may be more useful to see what percentage does go to college. The info that I got back then is that it was disproportionately high, but that was some years ago. Both my sons entered college.

Re: Home Schoolers
malkin #2270897 05/04/14 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by keystring

When you write of "credit", is this something official that follows the kids when it is time to apply for university, or perhaps reintegrate into the school system? Is this something in the United States federally, or particular to certain states?


School and home school requirements vary by state. In my state, parents are required to submit an affidavit stating that required subjects will be taught for the same amount of time as in public schools.

Right, that makes sense. But how about credit? Again, I am not American. But in every country where I have seen academic records, there is a minimum number of credits for graduating from high school and getting into college etc. Morodiene mentioned classes and getting credits. So I wondered about credits specifically.

Re: Home Schoolers
keystring #2270901 05/04/14 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by keystring

When you write of "credit", is this something official that follows the kids when it is time to apply for university, or perhaps reintegrate into the school system? Is this something in the United States federally, or particular to certain states?


School and home school requirements vary by state. In my state, parents are required to submit an affidavit stating that required subjects will be taught for the same amount of time as in public schools.

Right, that makes sense. But how about credit? Again, I am not American. But in every country where I have seen academic records, there is a minimum number of credits for graduating from high school and getting into college etc. Morodiene mentioned classes and getting credits. So I wondered about credits specifically.
What I meant is the same thing malkin refers to. You submit paperwork where the student get "credit" - not actual school credits or anything - but it acts as though they actually took the high school course.


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