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Actually it doesn't, and it's just the opposite. With the pre-requisite knowledge, you can see the facts for yourself.


Since I'm still in my degree program, the only credentials I can offer are my professional endeavors. I've served as the lead engineer on projects funded and principally owned by the United States EPA, I've served as the VP of Engineering and chief POC on projects for Fox Broadcasting, Viacom, Nike, and others. I've sold systems, as a party of my own, to universities, have served as the interim/contract consultant engineer for a startup based in Toronto and two others based in the US.

I've also worked professionally for the university, am currently employed by an F100 with full benefits (with whom I've had a relationship with since early high school), have performed research that has been endorsed by regional figures, won state-level competitions (sounds strange, but yes), and will be accepting an engineering management position come this summer.

There's other stuff, but there's no sense in posting my resume here lol.

Derulux vs. the Bot

And yet, you spend so much of your modern time, here, bickering with closed-minded pianists.

I don't see it that way; it's more like a cliche "mission" of sorts, and every reader convinced is another worth "fighting" for.

Can you provide us with references so that we can verify these statements?

And your music and piano credentials?

Well, don't quit your day job.

OK - you're a wunderkind. Big deal.

Folks - don't we have better things to do with our time here?

You must be kidding. I'm not handing out my managers' contact information so that a bunch of strangers can call him. I truly, honestly don't care if you don't believe me: it literally makes no difference in anything at all. In fact, I would encourage you to read all things and try to acquire all information as if it were apart from the means or person that delivered it to you. Skepticism is the first step to reason.

Hmm...how apt. Though, I believe, it's "difference to anything at all", I'm afraid. I agree, though, that what you say makes literally no difference at all...sorry...cheap shots *have* to be taken some times Um...with your busy schedule clearly being interrupted by us troglodytes, don't you feel guilty for every second wasted; a second that could be better spent securing the future of "modernised" humanity? Just...um...don't regret your time; being a genius has its perks and responsibilities; to boast one is to swell the other.
Xxx

I was also going to say, as "Atrys" has so aptly demonstrated, that you can't argue with someone who won't listen. Well, you can, but you are wasting your breath.

It's an odd thing to feel compelled to respond to they typed thoughts of another, and yet, compelled we are, apparently.

As for me, I popped into this thread to see how the "Atrys" enigma was proceeding, and was happy to see two things in particular: 1) Derulux's measured and cogent posts (in which I actually learned something about staying relaxed while playing ), and b) Morodiene's insight regarding "Atrys'" pattern of replies.

Say, FSO, perhaps you can clear something up for me--a thought I had when "Atrys" first broached the concept of modernity by writing, "even the piano majors have taken a deep interest into modern thinking." I am somewhat lost in the labeling of eras, but I believe we have moved past the "post-modern," yes? How many "eras" have there been since the "post-modern" one? Just exactly *what* era is this, these days?

Nope. I'm already way too productive professionally and academically and have no concerns with either; I do, like most people, enjoy inexhaustible hobbies and immersing myself in them in the same fashion as my professional or academic life.

Not only that, but fortune 100 companies are lining up to hire an undergrad candidate for executive-level positions (and, indeed, supposedly have hired), not to mention he/it is a VP and a chief point of contact. Uncanny!

Sorry, Atrys, but I don't buy it. Provide evidence, not just statements. With the "credentials" posted, I'm surprised you haven't drafted, garnered enough support, and passed a constitutional amendment to reduce the required age for US President, campaigned, and successfully won the office by now...


You don't have to. Your full name would suffice. Someone with your accomplishments should have their own wikipedia page. If that doesn't work for you, I can always default to this:

"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong." --Atrys


I do. I read about 100 books a year. If you do the math on that, it's around 100-150 pages a day. Everything from technical manuals to Harry Potter. (I drew the line at Twilight. Emo vampires suck. Pun intended. )


"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong." --Atrys


Sorry, I've been amusing myself. You're probably right..

@Derelux
Yeah, I didn't expect you to "buy" the truths I offer you. I've already addressed this point in a previous point to another member.

This still does nothing to help your case; the arm-weight teachings are the stuff of fiction and you failed to prove otherwise.

protip: so has literally everyone else that has tried to prove the concepts.

Now you have me interested in history. Of course the word 'weight' has as many different meanings as the word 'socialism,' but I've spent the evening reviewing some great teachers.

In the historical context, many piano teachers of the time (notoriously the Stuttgart conservatory) were teaching to hold the hand in a fixed position, held tightly at the wrist, to lift the fingers very high, to strike the keys with the the fingers. It was in response that teachers like Rudolph Breithaupt, Tobias Matthay, John Townsend, Maria Levinskaya and others began looking for a better way.


Example of hand position taught by the old 'finger school' (according to Breithaupt). Don't hold your hands like this.

The improvement they found was playing with a relaxed arm and wrist, with arm movement from the elbow, although great pianists like Rubenstein were already doing this. The problem they had was how to describe this to students. The answer they arrived at was weight.

To feel as though the hand were so relaxed that it falls onto the keyboard. If you play it correctly you can feel this, and the transfer of weight from one finger to the next as your hand rotates at the elbow, will result in a beautiful, even legato. Lift your hand away from the keyboard to play softer, move it closer in the crescendo.

The question then is whether any of these people thought that weight was the only thing pushing down on the piano, or whether they were aware of the motion of the elbow.

Certainly Breithaupt knew there was more than just weight involved in piano playing, as he wrote in his book Natural Piano Technic II, "Finger-action with weight is the the only correct action. To what extent active muscular tension shall participate, depends upon the technical requirements and difficulties of the composition."(p 56) Arnold Schultz pointed out Breithaupts method might have more accurately been named the School of Arm-Touch, rather than the school of weight.

Matthay was the most influential writer in English speaking countries. His writing was so difficult that later Ambrose Coveillo wrote a book to clarify called What Matthay Meant, which is not altogether clear in itself. However Matthay made a lot of good points, such as not to squeeze the key harder after it is already depressed, and not to waste energy.

To the point, did Matthay understand the involvement of the arm muscles when playing with 'weight?' It seems he did, as he discussed the muscles in his book Act of Touch, "We may optionally employ movements either of the Arm, Hand, or the Finger....the weight form of muscular-combination is the only form that will allow us to obtain the full measure of good tone."(pp217-219) Notably, Matthay constantly emphasized relaxation as a reaction to the Stuttgart school. He was aware that some muscle tension was necessary, but because he constantly mentioned relaxation, some of his readers misunderstood that no tension was allowed. That is another topic.

Before Breithaupt or Matthay came William Townsend (of Scotland). He described it as a problem of balance, balancing the arm weight with muscular control. In his book Balance of Arm in Piano Technique he wrote, "The balanced state is that in which, when the fingers are resting on anything, the whole limb from shoulder to finger-tips is at any moment ready and willing to swing: up, down, sideways, or circularly, at the wrist or elbows."(p43)

Maria Levinskaya was able to see the benefits of using both the fingers and the arms (Breithaupt stubbornly denied any possibility of benefit from using solely the fingers, Matthay was more understanding. Incidentally, the fallacy of referring to a single 'school of weight' becomes apparent when you read the huge arguments between the two foremost proponents, Breithaupt and Matthay).

She tried to teach each, and emphasized one or the other depending on what her students needed (from The Levinskaya System of Pianoforte Technique and Tone-Colour through Mental and Muscular Control (p72):

This method is probably still useful

I haven't been able to figure out whether Levinskaya thought the movement was produced solely by weight, but she mentions 'controlled' weight, so probably not. Possibly she didn't care about the actual mechanisms involved.

That's the history, abridged.

I think Atry's problem is that he sees every conversation as a competition, rather than a learning experience. Maybe it would help him to pray for humility.

protip:
"This, again, is an argument from authority and is actually not following the same line of logic. Making assertions that have no supporting evidence, yet have all the evidence to the contrary are not factual assertions; they are falsities. I, again, repeat the tautology: if you're wrong, you're wrong." --Atrys

Don't worry, CinnyB, I'm sure we're well into the retro era by now; there's the possibility of prescribing yourself as some form of pioneering eraclast, but I think it's best to join the fold of the current era; positively medieval if the world's political scene is anything by which to gauge. Um...shouldn't be long before a renaissance. Who knows, maybe the rack will be back in vogue? Or perhaps we're in a transient era; there are probably more people larping on village greens than ever lived there at the time, whilst stealthy bluetooth (and not ye dredded blutouth) keeps telecommunicative witchcraft at hand...who knows? Really, um, the only thing I can be sure of is that actions speak louder than words and words are but shouted thoughts; so long as our actions become more modern, who's going to notice the insipid shout? Pre-renaissance era; give it 50 years or so before the neo-raphaelites get to work. Um...Atrys; I was always told that talents are not given but earnt, that to squander a gift and not realise its potential would be a sin for which your peers and loved ones will pay...I was told this by myself and, whilst I'm not always sure I'm right, I convinced myself of this truth; brilliance is not something to admit but to hide, lest when your world comes crumbling down the whimpers of blame should fall on you, rather than allowing you to huddle with them. Well...um...unless you can stop the world crumbling, in which case one mustn't risk flying on the edge, or it won't do so anyway, in which case what good is that talent in the first place? That aside... immersing yourself in your hobbies in the same fashion as your professional life sounds very unenviable to me; how do you know where work ends and life begins?
Xxx

@phantomFive
Perfect example of a history-based and cited post. Something left for me to say is I already addressed a critical problem with the "school" by way of label caused by the sensation of this form of play. My point holds, the core ideas taught by the school hold, and the falsification of their base assertions hold.

(also, seeing "The 'Science' of Tone-Colour Technique" makes me cringe)


This is false.

@Derulux
You've clearly run out of tools...again...and resort to petty tactics. Also, you obviously have no idea what an argument from authority actually is LOL.