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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
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This school doesn't exist.
It certainly does. All you have to do is read the books, listen to the teachers, and do your research. You keep making assertions that are plainly irrelevant. You still have not offered any form of real refutation and you continue to make it obvious that you have run out of knowledge and tools to support your unfounded position. You've failed to do the very thing that wish to accomplish. Until someone makes a real case based on reason and empirical understanding, the point stands uncontested.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
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Until someone makes a real case based on reason and empirical understanding (...) Have you done this?
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
5000 Post Club Member
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5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446 |
Until someone makes a real case based on reason and empirical understanding (...) Have you done this? No, "he" hasn't. And if you check, that post is a relatively simple restatement of his previous post, which includes elements of all his "basic" programming (whether human or an actual bot). If he is a person, I'm suspecting some other conditions that I don't feel warrant airing publicly. Either way, it's a complete waste of time trying to hold a meaningful conversation.
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 566
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
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Posts: 566 |
I would like to understand what "arm weight" is. I'm currently reading Gyorgy Sandor's "On piano playing". This is what I have understood as arm weight:
"Weight alone is of little use, unless it is set in motion. Even if a ton of weight is applied to the key, it does not produce a sound unless it moves downward with a certain speed. It is speed that generates sound, not weight; therefore let us use as little weight as possible when generating speed. Muscular force is of use only in generating speed in the hammers, not as energy spent statically. The simultaneous and extended activation of an antagonistic set of muscles (for example, the flexors and extensors of the forearm or the biceps and triceps of the upper arm) is unproductive, and in spite of vigorous feeling of energy and tension in the arm, it is totally superfluous and therefore should be avoided. All it causes is immobility and stiffness which ultimately result in poor sound. The inescapable conclusion is that technique must concern itself with setting the hammers in motion using the forces of gravity, and expending a minimal and efficient amount of our own muscular energy."
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Last edited by noobpianist90; 05/01/14 02:10 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,031
1000 Post Club Member
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1000 Post Club Member
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Posts: 1,031 |
Hmm.. I once heard that you might be a bot
possibly not the only bot to recently invade the forum...
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
5000 Post Club Member
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5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446 |
I would like to understand what "arm weight" is. I'm currently reading Gyorgy Sandor's "On piano playing". This is what I have understood as arm weight:
"Weight alone is of little use, unless it is set in motion. Even if a ton of weight is applied to the key, it does not produce a sound unless it moves downward with a certain speed. It is speed that generates sound, not weight; therefore let us use as little weight as possible when generating speed. Muscular force is of use only in generating speed in the hammers, not as energy spent statically. The simultaneous and extended activation of an antagonistic set of muscles (for example, the flexors and extensors of the forearm or the biceps and triceps of the upper arm) is unproductive, and in spite of vigorous feeling of energy and tension in the arm, it is totally superfluous and therefore should be avoided. All it causes is immobility and stiffness which ultimately result in poor sound. The inescapable conclusion is that technique must concern itself with setting the hammers in motion using the forces of gravity, and expending a minimal and efficient amount of our own muscular energy."
Please correct me if I am wrong. This is a pretty descriptive paragraph, and highlights a lot of the generalizations I made in a previous post. The only thing that really makes me cringe (because of my background in physics/engineering) is the incorrect use of the word "weight". But I understand that, for most people, this is probably the best way to say it because of their understanding of the word "weight". Thing is, it doesn't really change the end result, so there isn't much point in arguing about it; the only reason to bring it up is if someone is incapable of understanding what the author is saying, and for whatever reason, needs that clarification.
Hmm.. I once heard that you might be a bot
possibly not the only bot to recently invade the forum... Really? Do tell!
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,031
1000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Oct 2012
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Well, I don't want to upset anyone but there are other recent posts with a similar unreasonable vibe. Perhaps PW is becoming a troll-bot proving ground.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
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9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
I know who Dan is talking about, and indeed there are many striking similarities.  However, let's leave him unnamed.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272
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6000 Post Club Member
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All this arm weight stuff reminded me of somebody.... http://popeye.com/;-)
-- J.S. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/7588.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/7589.jpg) Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
500 Post Club Member
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Yes, which is why no one is able to refute it. The point still stands uncontested, and Derulux's "background" is obviously questionable; maybe it's more correct to say his understanding of the material is obviously questionable since he's not able to grasp the idea of weight apart from mass. @noobpianist90 That is pretty close to the mark, but it is still not entirely empirically accurate. It isn't gravity we're using in chief, it's mass, independent of gravity as the opposition to the force from the key made possible by minimal, yet required, muscular firing.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990 |
@JoelW
In this thread, as well as others.
Not a single person has legitimately challenged the refutation of this school's garbage ideas and garbage teachings. Not even the professors in our music department can provide a sound argument in their favor: their way of thinking is simply not aligned enough with empirical observation and reason and science. There's just no reason to believe the ideas are true, and there's all the reason to believe that they aren't.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
Can you restate the argument? Or at least provide me a link to wherever you previously stated it.
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
500 Post Club Member
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500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990 |
Can you restate the argument for me please? One of the cases I've made is in this very thread, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding it. It strikes me now that a better, much more fitting, much more accurate platform for this way of thinking is to base the ideas on mass and momentum and kinetic energy and these things; not "weight".
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
There are five pages and quite a lot of posts from you. Please just restate the argument or provide a link to where you previously stated it.
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,031
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1000 Post Club Member
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Posts: 1,031 |
I'm still waiting for a response from Atrys on his playing ability. Joel asked and I asked, but there's still no response.
I think someone who this emphatically resists a time honored idea that everyone in the music community accepts must have considerable knowledge on the subject. It must be a concept he has mastered and can look back at having mastered the approach and consequently transcended the concept.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 217
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 217 |
Thanks! I usually try to keep tension at bay, but today, I took your advice (a bit exaggeratedly) and played the chords very relaxedly. It worked! My hands were definately not as tired as they usually are. It didn't sound the way I wanted it to exactly since I think the chords should be played more ... "bitingly". But I will continue practicing it this way and take it to my professor. He hasn't heard me pay it in a long while anyways.  Thanks again! I love this forum!
*Fiona*
"If music be food of love, play on!"
P.S. I am in love with Beethoven, infatuated with Liszt, and crazy about Chopin!
And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 217
Full Member
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I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what. Try relaxing your wrist more on the chords. You might be holding them fixed, and that will give you problems. Thanks! I usually try to keep tension at bay, but today, I took your advice (a bit exaggeratedly) and played the chords very relaxedly. It worked! My hands were definately not as tired as they usually are. It didn't sound the way I wanted it to exactly since I think the chords should be played more ... "bitingly". But I will continue practicing it this way and take it to my professor. He hasn't heard me pay it in a long while anyways. smile Thanks again! I love this forum!
*Fiona*
"If music be food of love, play on!"
P.S. I am in love with Beethoven, infatuated with Liszt, and crazy about Chopin!
And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 217
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 217 |
I have the same problem in Appassionata. I can play the 1st, 2nd and half of the 3 movement fine - but when I get to the very end, that coda is a killer! I am so tired, like the same athlete-tired you were talking about! The chords seem to exhaust my hands and by the time I get to the fast notes run upward, I just lose it. I don't know if this is a technique problem or what. I have been studying with a reputable professor who tells me that my technique is very good, so I am worried that it may just be muscle exhaustion. I am also a young pianist like you (18 yrs old) and am starting my studies in August. So maybe playing the entire Appassionata is just too much for me just like the Brahms practicing was too much for you. I don't know. But I hope you are getting better!
Best of luck! If I were you, I would consult an expert in ergonomic technique. Many fine and reputable pianists are not well versed in this specialized area of study. This is one reason why many players become injured. I remember reading a comment from Ilya Itin, that before learning the Taubman approach he would feel tired after playing and thought fatigue was just part of the deal. Thanks! I will definitely consult my professor about this and look into what you've mentioned.
*Fiona*
"If music be food of love, play on!"
P.S. I am in love with Beethoven, infatuated with Liszt, and crazy about Chopin!
And when he behaves, Rachmaninoff is my darling! ;p
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