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Originally Posted by Morodiene
OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

Yes, you might. But many of us have already fallen into the trap, so feel free to join the club. ha


Regards,

Polyphonist
Atrys #2269326 04/30/14 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Morodiene

OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

You can operate under the false assumption that I'm "trolling", or we can have this discourse with civility.
We shall see.

Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Morodiene

Why? If it produces the same result in students and allows them to play freely, they could call it fairies spinning on a plate and it would be fine.

Because it's misinformation. It's perfectly fine to teach in this way, but at the same time students ought to be familiar with the physics of the situation so that pedagogy doesn't spin its wheels too much in this area.
I don't think it's misinformation if it works. We are in the art of sound, not the science of it. That's another field.


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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Morodiene
OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

Yes, you might. But many of us have already fallen into the trap, so feel free to join the club. ha
LOL


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adanepst #2269330 04/30/14 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

I don't think it's misinformation if it works.

Misinformation is information that is false or inaccurate. The assertion that one can play using arm-weight alone, or chiefly, is subject to the same true-or-false standards as any other assertion. It just so happens that this one is false, and it is therefore misinformation.

The ideas are not exclusive of each other. You can, at once, teach a student under the "arm-weight school" whilst remaining grounded in the physics of the situation.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Atrys #2269332 04/30/14 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Morodiene

OK, I know I'll regret feeding the troll.

You can operate under the false assumption that I'm "trolling", or we can have this discourse with civility.

That certainly leaves you out.

(There, I just fed the troll again. What's the matter with me?) grin


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Polyphonist
adanepst #2269334 04/30/14 10:37 PM
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Why don't you ever try to actually contribute to a discussion?


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Atrys #2269335 04/30/14 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Why don't you ever try to actually contribute to a discussion?

Life is full of mysteries...


Regards,

Polyphonist
DanS #2269337 04/30/14 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
there is no such thing as "playing with arm weight". This is simply a perception, not a reality...Those who believe otherwise simply do not understand the mechanics of the situation.

Wrong.

JoelW #2269338 04/30/14 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Atrys
there is no such thing as "playing with arm weight". This is simply a perception, not a reality...Those who believe otherwise simply do not understand the mechanics of the situation.

Wrong.

The troll is being fed left and right - which post shall he respond to next? ha


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Polyphonist
JoelW #2269339 04/30/14 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW

Wrong.

Can you offer reasoning or evidence to support your position? If not, you're the one who is wrong.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Atrys #2269340 04/30/14 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
you're the one who is wrong.

Wrong.

adanepst #2269341 04/30/14 10:43 PM
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@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Atrys #2269343 04/30/14 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.


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adanepst #2269344 04/30/14 10:44 PM
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Atrys,

What level pianist are you?

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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Atrys
@JoelW
If you cannot offer any reasoning or evidence to support your idea that "arm-weight" play is possible, then there is no reason to believe that it is. In fact, the evidence to that claim is exactly contrary.

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.

He's probably just Google-handicapped. grin

adanepst #2269348 04/30/14 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene

Google it. It's out there and anyone can find if they wish to.

Indeed I have. I've also read books on the subject and have even had a teacher who professed this way of playing. To summarize the evidence, there simply is none. The idea is a misapprehension that is a product of "bias" sensation during play.

Anyone with a background in physics can easily identify the arm-weight teachings as largely false and unfounded, sorry to say.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
adanepst #2269350 04/30/14 10:51 PM
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Atrys,

Please answer my question.

Atrys #2269353 04/30/14 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys


The ideas are not exclusive of each other. You can, at once, teach a student under the "arm-weight school" whilst remaining grounded in the physics of the situation.


That is my point exactly. The whole "arm weight" concept goes right along with what is actually happening, regardless of the non-scientific name.

I teach voice which is probably 90% technique to being with, and there are things I will tell them - imagery things- that while not scientific coincide with what is scientifically happening and they get the student to make the sound and feeling desired. If I told them they need to contract their Thyroarytenoid muscle they would look at be blankly and not know what to do. If I tell them make a "manly" sound and demonstrate, then they know exactly what I mean and can copy it easily.

The same goes for "arm weight". It means nothing without the demonstration and the sound to accompany it, but combine the demonstration and sound with the name and the student can then imitate. The name is not intended to be scientific, it is intended to describe the feeling in a way that makes it easier for the student to replicate later on and for the teacher to refer to in the future once the student understands the feeling that is associated with that name.

It seems rather pedantic to have to describe this.


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adanepst #2269357 04/30/14 11:01 PM
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@Morodiene
What I'm refuting are claims made by the arm-weight school. When someone makes an assertion, it doesn't matter what "context" it is made in, it is still either true or false. The assertion that one can play chiefly with the weight of the arm is a false assertion, regardless of its intent. That is what I'm getting at.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
adanepst #2269360 04/30/14 11:03 PM
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I wonder what would happen if we just stopped feeding, everyone. Let's try it, as an experiment?


Regards,

Polyphonist
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