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Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2268880
04/29/14 08:41 PM
04/29/14 08:41 PM
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Here's a nice example of not overdoing it on the da-cap. This is cued up to the Gigue of Handel's KBS 13, Keith Jarret, piano. Notice especially how "plain" he plays section two of the Gigue the first time around, and how fitting the ornaments are the second time around. In the score that I have, there is but one mordent indicated in the whole Gigue, which occurs at the end of the second section, and he does play it the first time around, (7:38).

http://youtu.be/IGVxUhBNtuc?t=6m54s


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Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: gooddog] #2268912
04/29/14 09:43 PM
04/29/14 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gooddog
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by gooddog
Codifying ornaments, and scores for that matter, is a more recent phenomena.


I'm not sure of what you mean by "codifying ornaments" but Bach himself wrote out a table of ornaments. So, if that is the sort of thing you mean, it has been around as long as the scores themselves.
I was referring to the trend nowadays to follow the score exactly. My teacher has told me that before recordings, and especially before the 20th century, there was more flexibility in interpretation including adding, deleting or changing ornaments. He told me that competition judges today frown on changing the score or presenting an original interpretation, even if it is musical, because they have to follow a rigid score card or are rigid themselves. Changes like this can hurt your chances of progressing in a competition so piano playing today has less originality than it used to.


Oh, okay - I misunderstood.

On the subject of competitions, I heard one competitor at the VC do an extravagantly ornamented (and quite wonderful, IMO) version of the Italian Concerto, and was wondering what the judges would make of it. IIRC, it didn't seem to do any harm - I think that competitor progressed to the next round (OTOH, my memory of exactly what happened or who it was isn't too solid).




Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: hreichgott] #2268923
04/29/14 10:24 PM
04/29/14 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott

Anyone who thinks free ornamentation is a thing of the past should listen to Schiff's recording of the first Two-part Invention.


I don't know that recording, but I remember being startled by a live performance of that piece by him. But it turned out that what he was playing was this variant, which I had mistaken for something he had dreamed up himself.

Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2268974
04/30/14 03:32 AM
04/30/14 03:32 AM
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It might be instructive to read through the English suites. Here we have examples of Bach writing out ornamentation in some detail and also the doubles of some movements, which also indicates how the basic theme can be elaborated. It gives a perspective on the sort of ornamentation that Bach would have used.

It might be inferred from these few examples that Bach expected performers to do similar feats of elaboration in the rest of his keyboard music. OTOH, some of his movements, in the partitas for instance, are fairly elaborately written out and leave less room for further adornment. In my view, the French suites certainly can take a lot of elaboration, not just in mordents etc, but "joining up the dots": semiquavers C E G can become CDEFG, C E can become a triplet CDE. The 4th partita's allemande and sarabande are full of Bach filling in the gaps in this way.

BTW, the view that ornaments were necessary because of the poor sustain of the harpsichord is only partially true. I have played - and listened to afterwards - the opening of the sarabande of the 4th partita on piano and harpsichord. The top A minim in bar 2 is audible for longer on the harpsichord due to the higher harmonics: it sings on amazingly, but that's about the limit. Also, early fortepianos have a short sustain, but the practice of elaborate, as opposed to some, ornamentation died out. It was a cultural/fashion thing. My wife's 'cello teacher loved to say that he can play a single note for ever and so he could, so could Bach's stringed instruments, but ornamentation is hardly absent in the 'cello suites.

We cannot - except in the meticulously written out ornamentation of Couperin, Rameau etc (and even here I add an extra one or two sometimes in repeats) - know what was considered tasteful and what would have been considered vulgar in Bach's time and we are playing a very different instrument. So we are bound to end up deciding what suits our musical taste. Nevertheless, the English suites do give us an inkling of Bach's practice and we can at least try it, even if we then modify it.

Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: sandalholme] #2268988
04/30/14 05:30 AM
04/30/14 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sandalholme
My wife's 'cello teacher loved to say that he can play a single note for ever and so he could, so could Bach's stringed instruments, but ornamentation is hardly absent in the 'cello suites.


I was thinking of this, too. I haven't checked but imagine that the violin pieces and organ pieces also have ornamentation, and they, too, can sustain notes.

IIRC, some think that vibrato, as well as certain crescendo and decrescendo effects, were considered to be ornamentation during the Baroque era, too.




Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: phantomFive] #2268993
04/30/14 05:53 AM
04/30/14 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
In the old days they might just give you a bass line and a melody and let you fill in the rest yourself.


I believe they also gave you the chords, not unlike what you see in pop music "fake books" today. IIRC, if you were the accompaniment, you didn't get the melody, but just the bass and the chords.

Back in music theory class, we had to learn how to "realize" Baroque figured bass, which I was dreading. But it turned out to be surprisingly easy, once you knew the basic principles. In a way, the musical universe that made up "classical music" was much, much smaller back in the Baroque era, and that made it relatively easy to learn what was okay. There was a lot of formulaic stuff you could acquire without too much effort.

Unfortunately, I've forgotten how to do figured bass realizations. It's not something that sticks with you even if you don't use it, at least it hasn't for me.



Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2269007
04/30/14 07:00 AM
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It is interesting that taste comes up in many posts in this thread.

I was schooled in another recent thread here at PW that taste is apparently a kind of evil if you know you have it - it is a Fall from Grace. Of course, if you don't know you have it, it might be sort of difficult to use it as guidance (not to mention that it might be hard to acquire in the first place if you don't know what you are looking for).

But, on the other hand, if you do have taste, you are doomed to being a member of an elitist snobby club of effete prigs who think they are superior to other people. And who would want that?

The way I understand it, the more maladroit and lacking in grace your ornaments are, the better you may be as a person.

Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: wr] #2269012
04/30/14 07:22 AM
04/30/14 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hreichgott

Anyone who thinks free ornamentation is a thing of the past should listen to Schiff's recording of the first Two-part Invention.


I don't know that recording, but I remember being startled by a live performance of that piece by him. But it turned out that what he was playing was this variant, which I had mistaken for something he had dreamed up himself.

Wow thanks wr. Does anyone know if the other inventions have variants like this?


Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com

Working on:
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Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2269015
04/30/14 07:43 AM
04/30/14 07:43 AM
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Figured bass always brings a smile to my mind (mind? laugh ) when I see the urtext fascists on patrol; some of my favourite pieces by Pascal feature figured bass and *every* interpretation is worth hearing because of it...and none can be "wrong" smile It displays a freedom, admittedly only in the accompaniment, that today seems sadly lacking...I mean, um, there's even the misconception of rubato: the left hand, the accompanying hand, keeps strict rhythm. Of course, most people fortunately don't follow this absurdity but the fact you still see it cropping up displays how prolific such a suggestion was at some time. Greensleeves, one of my favourite songs of all time ("song"? Being used correctly? Gosh... laugh ), I believe had just the melody for the singer and the chord sequence for the accompanying lute, virginal, tuned box on a stick or whatever that pub happened to have. I mean, um, the stifling of freedom in music really kind of says to me "this isn't a creative pursuit but a vocation". For some this is true, of course, but for anybody with the liberty to be playing purely for pleasure I feel it's a travesty to be forced into the current fashion of adherence...*if* that's not what you feel. If you do, fine laugh Anyway, um, Old Man; if you're struggling to discover the sincerity of your playing and you feel you're starting to atomise it too much, starting to lose sight of the light that drew you to it, I have...let's go with three suggestions: 1) be a silly sausage. Um...by this I mean, be as embarrassing to yourself as you can; wave your hands around as you play, hum or sing along, swirl your body like a swizzle stick and shake your painfully bemusing Lang-Lang face to your heart's content. Now...for some of us some of these things happen automatically, and that's great, but sometimes all you need is a distraction; I personally don't know if doing all those things works, but I've found that by adopting the postures of different pianists (and, my red face shall admit, pretending to be them wink Really though...um...pretending to be Chopin as you play Chopin is *very* enlightening: oh dear, I have a terrible cold, everybody loves Liszt but he's just a *cough* *sneeze*, urgh...that shouldn't be black...I'm sure it shouldn't...*cough*.....see, playing his funeral marches in that state of mind adds a certain something, to me at least laugh ) can do wonders for trying to inspire life...anyway, um, 2) let it all go. Don't play it well; just play the hands out of sync, or really drastically overstate the melody like some...I don't know, really bad pianist. Make it a sing song grin 3) Stop playing it. Come back to it another day. I feel from your comment that this may well be what you're doing...oh! Sorry, um, 4) record yourself playing it, stop playing it for a couple of weeks and then listen to it. Not critiquingly, not looking for anything to improve upon, but rather to just appreciate it. For even in the simplest, most tortured renditions there are still nuggets of beauty and perhaps it's noticing *those* that will get you to stop worrying whether a squiggle matters or not laugh Um...if you play a piece enough you'll become used to it...the point is to never lose the light until you reach that point and then introduce the extra (or "necessary" ones?) ornaments to highlight this...well, light. Just my tuppenny laugh
Xxx


Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2269017
04/30/14 07:48 AM
04/30/14 07:48 AM
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Wow. This is such a pleasant, polite, mature conversation. No one is becoming snarky or combative. What a pleasure. Thanks guys.


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: hreichgott] #2269021
04/30/14 07:59 AM
04/30/14 07:59 AM
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I believe it's just the C major 2-Part Invention that has a variant. My Alfred copy of the Inventions (edited by Willard Palmer) has this listed as BWV 772a, with a description from which I have copied out the first paragraph:

Variant Contained in the Autograph of 1723
This version of Invention No. 1 appears in the Friedemann manuscript of 1723. The added notes seem to have been written into the manuscript later. They might have been added by J. S. Bach himself, to show that it was permissible to vary even the subject matter of a composition by adding passing tones. The triplets were clearly indicated.

Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: bennevis] #2269044
04/30/14 09:38 AM
04/30/14 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Here's the Goldberg played almost devoid of ornamentation. The Aria is almost unrecognisable......

http://youtu.be/Y2w-jBKYDWk

In some Baroque music, ornamentation is almost an integral part of the music, and sounds rather odd without it.

Here's how we normally hear it (this version has more ornamentation than most other piano versions):
http://youtu.be/--WOImiq7TQ

Thanks, bennevis. I'm not as familiar with the GV as I should be, but I do know the Aria. I agree, the lack of ornamentation really tends to strip it of its emotional power. I wonder what Kempf's motivation was.

As long as we're on the Aria, here's a real gem. Poignant on so many levels.

Goldberg Variations - Aria

Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: FSO] #2269124
04/30/14 01:51 PM
04/30/14 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FSO
Figured bass always brings a smile to my mind (mind? laugh ) when I see the urtext fascists on patrol

My favourite Mozart/Da Ponte HIP opera recordings are those conducted by René Jacobs, partly because of the very florid piano (not harpsichord) accompaniments - actually more like full-blown improvisations - in the recitatives. Mozart probably would have done something similar, conducting from his fortepiano.

You can just about hear a snatch of the fortepianist having a ball at 7:15 in this video (it goes on much longer on the full video, and on my CDs).
http://youtu.be/tc7JNdvQ-5I


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2269127
04/30/14 01:56 PM
04/30/14 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Man

As long as we're on the Aria, here's a real gem. Poignant on so many levels.

Goldberg Variations - Aria

I also have a soft spot for Rosalyn Tureck's Goldberg, which is almost stately in comparison to younger upstarts, not to mention Glenn Gould, and employing all the expressive potential of the modern grand.

Her CD recording is the only one I have that takes two CDs.... grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: FSO] #2269538
05/01/14 09:08 AM
05/01/14 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by FSO
Figured bass always brings a smile to my mind (mind? laugh ) when I see the urtext fascists on patrol; some of my favourite pieces by Pascal feature figured bass and *every* interpretation is worth hearing because of it...and none can be "wrong" smile It displays a freedom, admittedly only in the accompaniment, that today seems sadly lacking...I mean, um, there's even the misconception of rubato: the left hand, the accompanying hand, keeps strict rhythm. Of course, most people fortunately don't follow this absurdity but the fact you still see it cropping up displays how prolific such a suggestion was at some time. Greensleeves, one of my favourite songs of all time ("song"? Being used correctly? Gosh... laugh ), I believe had just the melody for the singer and the chord sequence for the accompanying lute, virginal, tuned box on a stick or whatever that pub happened to have. I mean, um, the stifling of freedom in music really kind of says to me "this isn't a creative pursuit but a vocation". For some this is true, of course, but for anybody with the liberty to be playing purely for pleasure I feel it's a travesty to be forced into the current fashion of adherence...*if* that's not what you feel. If you do, fine laugh Anyway, um, Old Man; if you're struggling to discover the sincerity of your playing and you feel you're starting to atomise it too much, starting to lose sight of the light that drew you to it, I have...let's go with three suggestions: 1) be a silly sausage. Um...by this I mean, be as embarrassing to yourself as you can; wave your hands around as you play, hum or sing along, swirl your body like a swizzle stick and shake your painfully bemusing Lang-Lang face to your heart's content. Now...for some of us some of these things happen automatically, and that's great, but sometimes all you need is a distraction; I personally don't know if doing all those things works, but I've found that by adopting the postures of different pianists (and, my red face shall admit, pretending to be them wink Really though...um...pretending to be Chopin as you play Chopin is *very* enlightening: oh dear, I have a terrible cold, everybody loves Liszt but he's just a *cough* *sneeze*, urgh...that shouldn't be black...I'm sure it shouldn't...*cough*.....see, playing his funeral marches in that state of mind adds a certain something, to me at least laugh ) can do wonders for trying to inspire life...anyway, um, 2) let it all go. Don't play it well; just play the hands out of sync, or really drastically overstate the melody like some...I don't know, really bad pianist. Make it a sing song grin 3) Stop playing it. Come back to it another day. I feel from your comment that this may well be what you're doing...oh! Sorry, um, 4) record yourself playing it, stop playing it for a couple of weeks and then listen to it. Not critiquingly, not looking for anything to improve upon, but rather to just appreciate it. For even in the simplest, most tortured renditions there are still nuggets of beauty and perhaps it's noticing *those* that will get you to stop worrying whether a squiggle matters or not laugh Um...if you play a piece enough you'll become used to it...the point is to never lose the light until you reach that point and then introduce the extra (or "necessary" ones?) ornaments to highlight this...well, light. Just my tuppenny laugh
Xxx

Well, as usual, it's your posts that bring a smile to my mind. smile

I can't say I've ever struggled to "discover the sincerity" of my playing. That's the problem. Too damn much sincerity. What's lacking is execution, basic competence.

Thanks for your suggestions, although I think some may be beyond my capabilities.

1.) "Be a silly sausage". Like an Oscar Meyer hot dog on a bench? I'm just a staid old man, who becomes even more staid when sitting at the piano. "Be as embarrassing to yourself as you can". I am always that, so I think I can dispense with the additional theatrics. grin

2.) "Let it all go. Don't play it well; just play the hands out of sync, or really drastically overstate the melody like some...I don't know, really bad pianist." Now you're talking, sis! This one I've got down cold. Check off #2.

3.) "Stop playing it. Come back to it another day." You are correct, I'm already doing that. But that's due to the obligations of life, nothing more. Although I have discovered, as was discussed in another thread, that leaving pieces for a while does seem to improve my playing. Maybe if I just stopped altogether, I'd become a virtuoso? (There's probably a logical fallacy in there that Atrys could help me with.)

4.) "Record yourself playing it." And why exactly would I want to prolong the suffering? Seriously, I have no recording equipment, and no need for any. But I do have a Bucket List. And one of those items is to post a recording on PW, if for no other reason than to get a thorough reaming from Polyphonist!

Re: To What Extent is Ornamentation "Optional"? [Re: Old Man] #2269622
05/01/14 12:24 PM
05/01/14 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Man
2.) "Let it all go. Don't play it well; just play the hands out of sync, or really drastically overstate the melody like some...I don't know, really bad pianist." Now you're talking, sis! This one I've got down cold. Check off #2.


Isn't this Dr. Podesta's prescription grin (sorry, couldn't resist!). Good advice though.



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