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Schubert concert tune #2265185
04/22/14 06:02 AM
04/22/14 06:02 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
D
de villiers Offline OP
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de villiers  Offline OP
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I have contacted quite a few piano tuners in South Africa,
and none of them know what I am talking about if I mention above tuning. The piano is a Grotrian Steinweg Mod 185.
Is there any literature I can give the tuner that will enable
him to do this tuning? (even with electronic tuning)
de Villiers

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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265186
04/22/14 06:16 AM
04/22/14 06:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Where did you hear about it? What context?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265189
04/22/14 06:42 AM
04/22/14 06:42 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,892
Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Tennessee
Greetings,
There is a tremendous resource at Jason Kanter's site. Rollingball.com

I wouldn't call it Schubert tuning, but rather well-temperament. I have a number of words written for one side of the controversy at my web sites, listed under my signature line.
Hope that helps
Regards,

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265214
04/22/14 08:22 AM
04/22/14 08:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 145
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Ed Sutton Offline
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This is the Holy Grail tuning of Perri Knize's book _Grand Obsession_.
She has a Grotrian Steinweg piano.
You can hear it on http://www.grandobsession.com/
There is no historic connection with Schubert.


Ed Sutton, RPT
Just a piano tuner!
Durham NC USA
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265220
04/22/14 08:46 AM
04/22/14 08:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,048
Chicagoland
RonTuner Offline
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If any of the techs use the Verituner software or electronic tuning device, I can give them information to emulate the tuning in the book.

In aural terms, the temperament is set a bit narrower than normal to get a little sweeter sound to the thirds. (favoring a 4:2, balanced with a 2:1 - about 70% 4:2 and 30% 2:1)

Going up, transition to a pure 4:2 octave by A5. By A6, lean towards the 4:1 double octave - about 60% 4:1 and 40% 4:2. Transition to a 4:1 double octave by the top

Going down from the temperament, start bringing in the 6:3 to fully transition to a pure 6:3 by A2 - balance between a 4:2 and 6:3 to guide the transition. Going down to A1, start leaning towards the 4:1 double octave - 80% 4:1 by A1. For the bottom octave, lean towards the 12:6 octave for depth - about 75%, checked with the 6:3 about 25%.

The above is based on the the electronic tuning file for her specific piano. I used that to set a tuning on another piano of the same model - close serial numbers. Then used the Verituner balancing function style creator to match the stretch the best I was able.

Ron Koval

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265380
04/22/14 03:45 PM
04/22/14 03:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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That's the first time I've heard anyone speak of "Treble Temperament". Very informative. Every aural technician should be making conscious decisions on how they are tuning treble octaves, IMHO, even if it is the same way each time. In the very least, it produces consistent stretch from one tuning to the next, saving on tuning time.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2265703
04/23/14 04:58 AM
04/23/14 04:58 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
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de villiers Offline OP
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In the book written by Peri Knize "Grand Obssesion"
a piano tuner Marc Weinberg tuned a Grotrian with
a Schubert concert tune

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265893
04/23/14 03:12 PM
04/23/14 03:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
Numbered Offline
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Posts: 728
Originally Posted by de villiers
I have contacted quite a few piano tuners in South Africa,
and none of them know what I am talking about if I mention above tuning. The piano is a Grotrian Steinweg Mod 185.
Is there any literature I can give the tuner that will enable
him to do this tuning? (even with electronic tuning)
de Villiers


de Villiers, what temperament do you usually have your piano tuned in?

What part of South Africa are you from?

Regards,


Numbered
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2265955
04/23/14 05:38 PM
04/23/14 05:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
My good friend and colleague Marc Wienert created the "Schubert Tuning".

It is something that exists between Marc and Perry and it is a specific tangible result.

I am familiar with what Marc did for Perry, though I would recommend talking to Marc about it, presuming he is willing.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
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978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Numbered] #2266711
04/25/14 03:07 AM
04/25/14 03:07 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
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de villiers Offline OP
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My tuner says he tuned the piano with an equal temperamant. Also said something about 4.2.
I live on the East Rand Gauteng

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: RonTuner] #2266715
04/25/14 03:21 AM
04/25/14 03:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
Numbered Offline
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Well, Ron Koval, in one of the earlier posts has given some advice on how to go about tuning what you are looking for. So, hopefully your tuner can assist you.

All of the best,


Numbered
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2266790
04/25/14 08:57 AM
04/25/14 08:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,048
Chicagoland
RonTuner Offline
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Chicagoland
Like any of the differing stretch approaches to setting equal temperament on a piano, the effect can vary based on the listener. To most, there won't be any difference heard, or it may be a very subtle change. To the author of the book, the effect the tuning had on her was enough to go looking for again; to find the tech that had been doing the tuning for the piano store...

An aural tech can approximate the result by just favoring 4ths over 5ths when setting the temperament - and then expanding out favoring double octaves over single octaves.


Ron Koval


Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2268502
04/29/14 04:00 AM
04/29/14 04:00 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
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de villiers Offline OP
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Thank you all for the informative and knowledgable replies
to my post. My tuner contacted Ron Koval, and he will be tuning the Grotrian Steinweg in the near future.
Without your help, I would have always wondered about
the tonal quality of the Schubert concert tune.
de Villiers

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2268849
04/29/14 08:57 PM
04/29/14 08:57 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,348
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
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I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: pianoloverus] #2268919
04/29/14 11:07 PM
04/29/14 11:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

If that is the case, why are instruments tuned at all, and why have musicians and composers agonized over tunings for hundreds of years? The music that composers write presupposes some form of organization of the relations between notes that they want to hear and expect the listener to hear. Is it not our job to try our best to provide that foundation on which to perform their music?

Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2269154
04/30/14 04:07 PM
04/30/14 04:07 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Seattle
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SMHaley Offline
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Seattle
Tuning and temperament methodology can indeed have a profound influence on "composer intent." Yes, the instrument is the medium but the tuning is the foundation. Can you imagine Debussy in Quarter Comma Meantone? Eekk!


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Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: pianoloverus] #2269191
04/30/14 05:49 PM
04/30/14 05:49 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Rochester MN
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2269199
04/30/14 05:57 PM
04/30/14 05:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,632
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.

I think pianoloverus may have been referring to a "type" of temperament rather than quality of tuning.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Chris Leslie] #2269212
04/30/14 06:29 PM
04/30/14 06:29 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

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Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.

I think pianoloverus may have been referring to a "type" of temperament rather than quality of tuning.

I believe that the two things are completely intertwined. Whether ET or UT, a good tuner brings out those "little extras" which may be inherent in a fine piano, but have never been drawn from, or tended to, in the instrument.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers] #2270213
05/02/14 02:05 PM
05/02/14 02:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
Hello All,

I spent the day in Manhattan NY yesterday with Marc Weinert. I mentioned this thread and the comments.

So far, what is described here is not the "Schubert" tuning. Marc suggested I mention this here.

It is unlikely Marc would be inclined to post here.

Guessing is not likely to come up with the correct answer. Perhaps Perry would be willing to say something here.

Ron K will do a very good tuning but not the Schubert tuning.

.

Larry


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
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