2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
79 members (bilb, Bostonmoores, al reds, AaronSF, brennbaer, antune, 36251, Boboulus, 13 invisible), 1,578 guests, and 762 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#2265185 04/22/14 06:02 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
I have contacted quite a few piano tuners in South Africa,
and none of them know what I am talking about if I mention above tuning. The piano is a Grotrian Steinweg Mod 185.
Is there any literature I can give the tuner that will enable
him to do this tuning? (even with electronic tuning)
de Villiers

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
M
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Where did you hear about it? What context?

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,193
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,193
Greetings,
There is a tremendous resource at Jason Kanter's site. Rollingball.com

I wouldn't call it Schubert tuning, but rather well-temperament. I have a number of words written for one side of the controversy at my web sites, listed under my signature line.
Hope that helps
Regards,

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 273
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 273
This is the Holy Grail tuning of Perri Knize's book _Grand Obsession_.
She has a Grotrian Steinweg piano.
You can hear it on http://www.grandobsession.com/
There is no historic connection with Schubert.


Ed Sutton, RPT
Just a piano tuner!
Durham NC USA
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,273
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,273
If any of the techs use the Verituner software or electronic tuning device, I can give them information to emulate the tuning in the book.

In aural terms, the temperament is set a bit narrower than normal to get a little sweeter sound to the thirds. (favoring a 4:2, balanced with a 2:1 - about 70% 4:2 and 30% 2:1)

Going up, transition to a pure 4:2 octave by A5. By A6, lean towards the 4:1 double octave - about 60% 4:1 and 40% 4:2. Transition to a 4:1 double octave by the top

Going down from the temperament, start bringing in the 6:3 to fully transition to a pure 6:3 by A2 - balance between a 4:2 and 6:3 to guide the transition. Going down to A1, start leaning towards the 4:1 double octave - 80% 4:1 by A1. For the bottom octave, lean towards the 12:6 octave for depth - about 75%, checked with the 6:3 about 25%.

The above is based on the the electronic tuning file for her specific piano. I used that to set a tuning on another piano of the same model - close serial numbers. Then used the Verituner balancing function style creator to match the stretch the best I was able.

Ron Koval

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
M
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
That's the first time I've heard anyone speak of "Treble Temperament". Very informative. Every aural technician should be making conscious decisions on how they are tuning treble octaves, IMHO, even if it is the same way each time. In the very least, it produces consistent stretch from one tuning to the next, saving on tuning time.

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
In the book written by Peri Knize "Grand Obssesion"
a piano tuner Marc Weinberg tuned a Grotrian with
a Schubert concert tune

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by de villiers
I have contacted quite a few piano tuners in South Africa,
and none of them know what I am talking about if I mention above tuning. The piano is a Grotrian Steinweg Mod 185.
Is there any literature I can give the tuner that will enable
him to do this tuning? (even with electronic tuning)
de Villiers


de Villiers, what temperament do you usually have your piano tuned in?

What part of South Africa are you from?

Regards,


Mark
Piano tuner technician
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
My good friend and colleague Marc Wienert created the "Schubert Tuning".

It is something that exists between Marc and Perry and it is a specific tangible result.

I am familiar with what Marc did for Perry, though I would recommend talking to Marc about it, presuming he is willing.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
My tuner says he tuned the piano with an equal temperamant. Also said something about 4.2.
I live on the East Rand Gauteng

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
Well, Ron Koval, in one of the earlier posts has given some advice on how to go about tuning what you are looking for. So, hopefully your tuner can assist you.

All of the best,


Mark
Piano tuner technician
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,273
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,273
Like any of the differing stretch approaches to setting equal temperament on a piano, the effect can vary based on the listener. To most, there won't be any difference heard, or it may be a very subtle change. To the author of the book, the effect the tuning had on her was enough to go looking for again; to find the tech that had been doing the tuning for the piano store...

An aural tech can approximate the result by just favoring 4ths over 5ths when setting the temperament - and then expanding out favoring double octaves over single octaves.


Ron Koval


Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 9
Thank you all for the informative and knowledgable replies
to my post. My tuner contacted Ron Koval, and he will be tuning the Grotrian Steinweg in the near future.
Without your help, I would have always wondered about
the tonal quality of the Schubert concert tune.
de Villiers

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,337
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,337
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

If that is the case, why are instruments tuned at all, and why have musicians and composers agonized over tunings for hundreds of years? The music that composers write presupposes some form of organization of the relations between notes that they want to hear and expect the listener to hear. Is it not our job to try our best to provide that foundation on which to perform their music?

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
S
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
Tuning and temperament methodology can indeed have a profound influence on "composer intent." Yes, the instrument is the medium but the tuning is the foundation. Can you imagine Debussy in Quarter Comma Meantone? Eekk!


PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005


Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
7000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,716
C
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,716
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.

I think pianoloverus may have been referring to a "type" of temperament rather than quality of tuning.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
7000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.

I think pianoloverus may have been referring to a "type" of temperament rather than quality of tuning.

I believe that the two things are completely intertwined. Whether ET or UT, a good tuner brings out those "little extras" which may be inherent in a fine piano, but have never been drawn from, or tended to, in the instrument.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Hello All,

I spent the day in Manhattan NY yesterday with Marc Weinert. I mentioned this thread and the comments.

So far, what is described here is not the "Schubert" tuning. Marc suggested I mention this here.

It is unlikely Marc would be inclined to post here.

Guessing is not likely to come up with the correct answer. Perhaps Perry would be willing to say something here.

Ron K will do a very good tuning but not the Schubert tuning.

.

Larry


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
KORG DS-1H pedal issues with Korg D1
by Mta88 - 07/24/21 04:28 PM
What is this musical symbol?
by pianoloverus - 07/24/21 02:55 PM
I Want To Be Happy
by Simon_b - 07/24/21 02:20 PM
What is this symbol?
by pianoloverus - 07/24/21 01:11 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics208,188
Posts3,116,003
Members102,223
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5