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Turnabout #2233078 02/17/14 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Turnabout

Very nice! cool

Lower velocities are reproduced beautifully, but from the video it looks as if the demonstrator was struggling a little to get the wider dynamics at the top of the velocity range. Maybe that can be adjusted.

Now we just need the same electronics in a lighter form. Let's hope past experience is not repeated...

Last edited by voxpops; 02/17/14 10:52 AM.

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voxpops #2233217 02/17/14 02:35 PM
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Already announced in kawai site!

So no UFO grin


http://www.kawai.de/mp11_en.htm

Available end of Feb

Last edited by evamar; 02/17/14 02:36 PM.

Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

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voxpops #2233248 02/17/14 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Turnabout

Very nice! cool

Lower velocities are reproduced beautifully, but from the video it looks as if the demonstrator was struggling a little to get the wider dynamics at the top of the velocity range. Maybe that can be adjusted.


And the sustain was not great - especially in the treble.

ando #2233268 02/17/14 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Turnabout

Very nice! cool

Lower velocities are reproduced beautifully, but from the video it looks as if the demonstrator was struggling a little to get the wider dynamics at the top of the velocity range. Maybe that can be adjusted.


And the sustain was not great - especially in the treble.

Just had another quick listen - I hear what you mean. That kind of thing has, hitherto, been adjustable in the MPs, but it is an "artificial" enhancement of the original samples that needs to be used very judiciously (otherwise it turns the piano into a synth). Of course, it could just be that the bass is overpowering the treble in the video, and so it's difficult to make a judgment based on the demonstration alone.


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Dear,
I can receive products in Miami, and get them to buenos aires, don't care size or weight.
As i'm new here, i can provide references vía facebook.
Best,

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You boasting - or what?

OneEye #2269972 05/02/14 12:58 AM
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I made this identical post in another thread, but I thought it might be more appropriate in this thread:

First time poster here.

I am merely an enthusiastic hobbyist when it comes to the piano. But I keep trying to get better as I grow older.

I have now had my MP11 for about three weeks or so. I started off running it through a little portable PA in what is only a temporary practice room until I finish a formal home studio in my basement. After about 10 days of fighting with lots of acoustic issues related to the inferior amplification, I got a bit smarter and hooked up a set of $100/each powered monitors that I had been using on my computer. The monitors provide the nice flat response I was really looking for. I've just got them set up on acoustic isolation pads on either side (on top) of the MP11, pointing towards center. Although this is also only a temporary solution, I do think it has been very beneficial, for me, to listen to the piano in this fashion -- medium volume; straight XLR-out; totally flat response.

At any rate, I will say that, at least in the context of the fairly confined space in which I am currently playing, I'm not a huge fan of the factory-preset Concert Grand 1 sound. That said, I have a suspicion that it I would like it a whole lot better if I were playing through larger monitors, with wider stereo separation, in a considerably larger space.

Even so, it's likely that I, personally, am rarely going to use ANY of the preset sounds. Rather, I'm going to keep on doing what I've already started doing: using the comprehensive sound parameter definition capabilities of the MP11 to tweak the preset sounds to something more to my liking.

The first sound I set out to make I wanted to be as entirely unadorned as possible -- flat, with subdued resonance throughout. For me, the factory preset Concert Grand simply has too much going on in terms of the way they have mixed their samples. I'm not going to go into the dirty details, but if you want to know what I'm talking about, pull up the MP11 manual online and go to the Virtual Technician section and check out the several dozen user-adjustable parameters. Don't get me wrong ... I think it's very impressive. It gives the user an extraordinary degree of control over the sound produced by this piano. It also, in my judgment, looks like a huge temptation for a group of Kawai sound engineers to run amok in terms of what they are trying to cram into a signal that is being processed by human ears that don't possess anywhere near the aural discernment as do the high-end microphones with which their various samples were produced.

I'm one who believes there is an important and often ignored difference between what a microphone hears, in all its indiscriminate glory, and what we hear, in our brains, via our ears, given the particular space we occupy relevant to the sound source. And, I believe most of us routinely filter out elements of an audio signal that we determine to be extraneous to what it is we think we are listening to.

Anyway, without blabbering on any further, the bottom line is that I started with the factory preset settings for the Concert Grand 1. I then systematically reduced (often drastically), or completely dropped to zero, the values for several parameters. I dialed back significantly on almost all the resonance-related parameters. I removed or drastically reduced almost all the elements of the signal that were related to mechanical functions inside the sampled piano.

In the end I now have a bare, completely unadorned acoustic piano sound. Am I completely satisfied with it? No. Not by any means. But it's a starting point. I'm sure it will change once I move into the larger studio space I'm building. I'm sure live performances will necessitate alternate custom settings. So, from that standpoint, I'm really pleased with what is effectively complete user control over the various elements of the piano's sounds.

Now, as for the "Grand Feel" action. Well, simply put, I think it's in a class by itself. At least for my tastes. One of the control parameters is directly related to the action. The values are (iirc) Extra-light, Light, Normal, Heavy, and Extra Heavy. As I've been trying to get used to the feel of the action, I've alternated back and forth between Normal and Heavy. Of course, the actual feel of the keys doesn't change with these settings. It's the sound itself that is being changed. But it is definitely perceived as a change in the actual feel of the keys. Or, at least my brain is willing to suspend disbelief sufficiently to believe that the actual feel of the keys is being altered.

I like both the Normal and Heavy settings, although I suspect that, as I grow more accustomed to the feel of the action, I will more than likely settle into a routine of using the Normal setting much more often than not. There is simply a wider dynamic response with that setting. That said, I have liked playing certain kinds of music with the setting on Heavy. You get a real sense of resistance to your fingers, and I find it much easier to play softly and expressively when I have it on the Heavy setting.

Bottom line: I couldn't be more pleased with the MP11. I've been playing it for 2 - 3 hours a day, and would like to play it 5 - 6 hours a day. As should go without saying, it isn't a replacement for a high-quality acoustic grand piano. But, in my experience, and consistent with my personal tastes, it's the best digital piano I've ever played.

Here are a couple recordings (in .wav format) I've made in the past week. The Chopin prelude was recorded with the Heavy setting. The hymn arrangement was recorded with the Normal setting.

I look forward to participating in future discussions here.

Chopin - Prelude in E minor (largo assai)


Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King (own arrangement)

Last edited by William Schryver; 05/02/14 10:00 AM.
OneEye #2270038 05/02/14 06:29 AM
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Congrats, W.S....

Glad to hear you're liking your MP11! Thanks for posting the samples! The MP11 looks and sounds great!

Play On!
HK


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OneEye #2270275 05/02/14 03:41 PM
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William, your comments are pretty details on the sounds of the MP11. What are your thoughts on the GF action after having owned it for a while?

OneEye #2271034 05/04/14 03:15 PM
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It is nice to hear a review from someone who has owned the MP11 for a while. There will not be any MP11s in the Atlanta GA area as the dealers will not carry them. frown Since I am very interested in replacing my MP8 with a MP11 or other keyboard, that is not a good thing.

Yesterday, I stopped by the Kawai dealership to play on the CA95 since they share the same action. These are just my thoughts.

PRO:

I thought the GF action felt luscious under my fingers. I am usually playing an acoustic 7 foot Steinway grand and I didn't have any trouble adapting immediately to the feel. It felt really nice and smooth. It was very easy to play the accompaniment softly while bringing out the medley or any other notes or passage ways you wanted to emphasize. The action was very even across the complete keyboard. Chromatic descending thirds were easy to play on the action.

CON:

The most bothersome was the trying to repeat the same note rapidly 3 or 4 times rapidly in a row, seems like the key doesn't come up fast enough. The other thing was alluded to in an earlier post about the action being as responsive to different degrees of volume when you are playing in the loud area of responsiveness. Excellent in very soft to medium loud, but medium loud to very loud it didn't appear to have as many gradients. This may be true, to a certain extent, for all digital pianos. To be fair, I didn't try the different touch settings. No action is perfect even in an acoustic grand piano, but you do become accustomed to a piano action you play on all the time and adapt & work around it's flaws.

OTHER COMMENTS:

I really like the Roland V-piano action in that it is so quick and fast of any action that I have ever played, but is too light for my taste, it reminds me of a acoustic Baldwin grand, but more responsive) and hence would be harder to go back & forth from my Steinway.

I wasn't judging the sound system of the CP95, but the Yamaha N2 I think has it beat by a long ways, but then again, the price is a long ways apart too. smile The N2 sound system is definitely the best I have heard so far (if you have the lid up. for sounding like an acoustic piano. Much better than the N1, NU1,N3 or Roland LX in my estimation.




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Quote
CON:

The most bothersome was the trying to repeat the same note rapidly 3 or 4 times rapidly in a row, seems like the key doesn't come up fast enough.


I've been considering a new keyboard and would really like one capable of quick repetition. Has anyone else experienced this on an actual MP11? For those with one at hand, how quickly can you do multiple repeats (say, with alternating index fingers) before the action gives it up? Like a lot of others, I don't have an MP11 handy around here to try myself.

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Originally Posted by pianobear100

CON:

The most bothersome was the trying to repeat the same note rapidly 3 or 4 times rapidly in a row, seems like the key doesn't come up fast enough.

I wanted to reply to this earlier but was on the road. I haven't experienced this problem and am able to do repeated notes and trills pretty easily. Each pianos' action is different when comparing acoustics, and perhaps it's just like you'd have to adjust from your Steinway to a different acoustic. But it is certainly possible to play trills and repeated notes on the GF action.

Quote
The other thing was alluded to in an earlier post about the action being as responsive to different degrees of volume when you are playing in the loud area of responsiveness. Excellent in very soft to medium loud, but medium loud to very loud it didn't appear to have as many gradients. This may be true, to a certain extent, for all digital pianos. To be fair, I didn't try the different touch settings. No action is perfect even in an acoustic grand piano, but you do become accustomed to a piano action you play on all the time and adapt & work around it's flaws.


Perhaps changing the Voicing setting to Dynamic? I get a nice growl in the bass notes that begins at around MF and then as you crescendo the growl remains the same (except getting louder) but the note gets more depth to it. Not sure if that makes sense, but there is a noticeable difference in the louder dynamics, IMO.

Really, the only thing you can test I think on the CA95 is the action itself, and not the responsiveness. I've never played a CA95 so I can't speak to the differences, but it is my understanding the sound engine is different (I could be wrong here - someone verify or correct me).


private piano/voice teacher FT

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NormB #2271376 05/05/14 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by NormB
Quote
CON:

The most bothersome was the trying to repeat the same note rapidly 3 or 4 times rapidly in a row, seems like the key doesn't come up fast enough.


I've been considering a new keyboard and would really like one capable of quick repetition. Has anyone else experienced this on an actual MP11? For those with one at hand, how quickly can you do multiple repeats (say, with alternating index fingers) before the action gives it up? Like a lot of others, I don't have an MP11 handy around here to try myself.


See my post above, but to directly answer your question, I can do this for as long as I want to. I just tested it now exactly as you described it. I give up before the MP11 does, but I was able to play this way for a good 5 seconds smile .


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Morodiene #2271457 05/05/14 01:23 PM
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Quote


See my post above, but to directly answer your question, I can do this for as long as I want to. I just tested it now exactly as you described it. I give up before the MP11 does, but I was able to play this way for a good 5 seconds smile .


Interesting! Thanks for this additional info. If its speed is such that it can keep up with you in this test that is saying a lot!

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I don't think I can add anything substantive to what I already wrote above concerning the "Grand Feel" action:

Quote
Now, as for the "Grand Feel" action. Well, simply put, I think it's in a class by itself. At least for my tastes. One of the control parameters is directly related to the action. The values are (iirc) Extra-light, Light, Normal, Heavy, and Extra Heavy. As I've been trying to get used to the feel of the action, I've alternated back and forth between Normal and Heavy. Of course, the actual feel of the keys doesn't change with these settings. It's the sound itself that is being changed. But it is definitely perceived as a change in the actual feel of the keys. Or, at least my brain is willing to suspend disbelief sufficiently to believe that the actual feel of the keys is being altered.

I like both the Normal and Heavy settings, although I suspect that, as I grow more accustomed to the feel of the action, I will more than likely settle into a routine of using the Normal setting much more often than not. There is simply a wider dynamic response with that setting. That said, I have liked playing certain kinds of music with the setting on Heavy. You get a real sense of resistance to your fingers, and I find it much easier to play softly and expressively when I have it on the Heavy setting.

Bottom line: I couldn't be more pleased with the MP11. I've been playing it for 2 - 3 hours a day, and would like to play it 5 - 6 hours a day. As should go without saying, it isn't a replacement for a high-quality acoustic grand piano. But, in my experience, and consistent with my personal tastes, it's the best digital piano I've ever played.


I will reiterate that, although I really do like the "Heavy" setting in certain contexts, the "Normal" setting is becoming my "default" selection. I've concluded that I like the "Heavy" setting as much for the perception of "heavier" keys as for the alteration in the sound that (to me) kind of sounds like you've propped open the lid of a grand piano with a nice thick book.

At any rate, it's piano time for me again, so I'm going to bring this post to a quick end.

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Originally Posted by NormB
Quote
CON:

The most bothersome was the trying to repeat the same note rapidly 3 or 4 times rapidly in a row, seems like the key doesn't come up fast enough.


I've been considering a new keyboard and would really like one capable of quick repetition. Has anyone else experienced this on an actual MP11? For those with one at hand, how quickly can you do multiple repeats (say, with alternating index fingers) before the action gives it up? Like a lot of others, I don't have an MP11 handy around here to try myself.


I must be coming up on about a month of playing my new MP11. In my opinion, the issue is not one of the MP11's inherent incapability to provide the light, quick response some players will prefer. It's simply a matter of adjusting the "action" parameter to suit your tastes. I have very strong hands/fingers and have always preferred an acoustic grand piano with a fairly heavy action. That said, I learned how to play the piano on a 1908 Conway Upright Grand that has the lightest, fastest action of any piano I have ever played. If I want to get the feel of my old Conway on the MP11, I can just set the "action" parameter to "Light" or "Extra-light". I've done just that in order to play a couple pieces that I originally composed on my old Conway, and which benefit from being played with the lighter-feeling action. On the other hand, as I have mentioned in my previous posts, I currently prefer the "Normal" or "Heavy" settings. And, in my opinion, although I kind of like the "feel" of "Extra Heavy" for playing something like Chopin's Prelude in C minor, I also think it tends to muffle the overall sound too much. And I definitely would not use "Extra Heavy", and probably not even "Heavy" for a piece that required one to strike a single note repeatedly in a very rapid fashion. That said, put the setting on "Normal" and I can't imagine anyone (with the possible exception of Glenn Gould) not being able to play (for example) the 3rd Movement of Beethoven's Sonata quasi una fantasia (the so-called "Moonlight Sonata").

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(I also posted this on the MP7 thread because the problem described below was first reported with regard to the MP7, and was discussed there. However, since I am reporting it now with regard to the MP11, I felt it should be noted here as well.)

I don't know if this has been noted yet on this forum, but I have discovered that the "jumpy parameter" problem affects the MP11 as well as the MP7. I hadn't noticed it previously, but yesterday when attempting to edit the reverb parameters while playing a setup with an EP sound, the screen went crazy, self-selecting the pre-delay parameter no matter which parameter I selected, and constantly changing the value of the parameter, mostly alternating between two values. The problem seemed to be mainly triggered by the use of the damper (right) pedal of the three-pedal unit. The pedal function is assigned to damper, but depressing the pedal caused the parameter selection highlight to jump to the pre-delay parameter, and for the value to constantly change. Not using the pedal seemed to calm the screen down.

Unfortunately, this did not seem to be the only problem. When I visited another screen on the same setup, some parameter values had been changed. I did not observe any pattern to this, it seemed rather random.

The problem seems to be intermittent and may or may not be repeatable. I left the setup where I was experiencing the problem and then returned to it, and the problem was still there. Then I did the same thing again, and when returning to the setup this time the problem was no longer in evidence. This is all that I've observed so far.

I know that this problem has been reported with regard to the MP7. I think it is important for Kawai and for MP11 owners, or prospective owners, to know that the problem affects the MP11 also.

I know that Kawai is aware of the issue, at least with regard to the MP7. I hope they are addressing it and will release a fix soon. I do hope it is a problem that can be corrected in software. If it's a hardware problem, that will be much more serious and a much bigger hassle for everyone involved -- the company, the retailers, and the purchasers.

Perhaps people should consider holding off on buying a Kawai MP7 or MP11 until Kawai addresses the issue and lets us know whether it is hardware or software related, and when we can expect a fix. It is a serious problem and makes these otherwise-excellent instruments unreliable.

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I don't play much with the sounds on my MP11, but yesterday I did a combination piano/synth pad sound and used the damper pedal. After a while, I could barely hear the pad part to the sound. I thought it was just a max polyphony thing, so I lifted off the pedal and tried again, but still no pad. I changed to a string sound then back to the pad and it was there again.

I will try to repeat this again today to see if it was a weird fluke thing, my imagination, or an issue. So far I have not experienced any weirdness with the display to my knowledge.


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Originally Posted by Savante
I don't know if this has been noted yet on this forum, but I have discovered that the "jumpy parameter" problem affects the MP11 as well as the MP7.


Savante, thank you for bringing this to our attention.

This is the second report of such behaviour, and we will continue to work with voxpops and now yourself to ensure the issue is fully resolved. If you have not done so already, may I please ask you to contact Kawai America to ensure that the matter can be investigated through the official channels.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
I don't play much with the sounds on my MP11, but yesterday I did a combination piano/synth pad sound and used the damper pedal. After a while, I could barely hear the pad part to the sound. I thought it was just a max polyphony thing, so I lifted off the pedal and tried again, but still no pad. I changed to a string sound then back to the pad and it was there again.

I will try to repeat this again today to see if it was a weird fluke thing, my imagination, or an issue. So far I have not experienced any weirdness with the display to my knowledge.


This sounds like a version of the same problem. You noticed the sound changing, which is the most significant effect of a parameter change. I presume it's unlikely that you're staring at the screen all the time when you play. (I sure don't!) So there may have been changes there you didn't see. Further, sometimes parameters that are not displayed on the screen are also changing values spontaneously. In this case you might hear a change in the sound and not see anything even if you were looking at the screen. I have had this experience also. Selecting another setup and then returning to the setup where you experienced the problem would reset the setup and should, at least for the time being, correct the problem, which is what you experienced.

Today I am not able to reproduce the problem. It seems to be intermittent which makes it difficult to troubleshoot. But just because it doesn't reappear right away doesn't mean it never happened or is somehow fixed. It may well occur again at some unexpected moment.

I am in communication with Kawai about this issue. So far they are offering to replace the instruments, but the MP11 isn't expected to be available until July. And replacing the instrument may not correct the problem if they have not found the cause and corrected it, which so far seems to be the case.

The problem seems to occur very rarely, and only under specific (but so far unidentified) circumstances. Most people will either not notice it, or assume it is just their unfamiliarity with the instrument, or user error. I played my MP11 intensively for two weeks before noticing it. And today it isn't happening again. But when it was happening yesterday it was very much happening, and persisted for quite awhile. Eventually I made so many changes that it stopped, but I'm not sure which changes stopped it.

I suspect that all MP7 and MP11 instruments probably have this flaw, but that for most users it either hasn't occurred yet or they haven't noticed it yet. Eventually it will become evident, but that may take awhile. Pedal input may be one factor that triggers the problem, but that doesn't mean the pedal is the problem. More likely, it is the instrument responding inappropriately to pedal input in some circumstances.

I hope Kawai can get to the bottom of this. Replacing instruments is a big nuisance for everyone, and may not get to the source of the problem.

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