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" I think that it must be a Hamburg piano and represents an ideal for which they alone own the patent !"

Yes, That is a Hamburg. You can tell by the rounded arms and by the one piece fall board. (no hinge)

"I'm curious if you also hear how ugly the Steinway is"

Nope - can't hear an ugly sound at all....

I never trust recordings to judge sound quality of a piano anyway. Nowadays you can't even trust live sound all the time because some of the showrooms have secret sound processing systems. I had one demonstrated to me. It does enhance the sound significantly.

Basically, this piece requires three different pianistic colours: 1) inner melody 2) arpeggio motion/accompaniment in left and right hand, and 3) bass.

I hear the Steinway performing the worst of the three pianos, in terms of drawing out different textures to highlight these compositional aspects. Is this not heard by others?

c.1:33 (inner melodic line vs.right hand motion)
c1:58 (inner melodic line vs.right hand motion)
c.3:00 (texture/colour issues among everything going on)

??? I won't tackle the subjective nature of perception but here you and joe80 refer to the exact opposite observation. So agree on the first part, disagree on the second? Or maybe I'm just puzzled by the dichotomy of layered & clarity.

Well, A443, you put me on the spot.

At the start I agreed with Joe and my feeling was Jorg Hanselmann seemed a bit diffident about the Steingraeber. Maybe that's part of what Joe meant by playing the Steinway better. Later the Steingraeber seemed to come into its own, particularly in the passages you mentioned.

A few months ago Jorg mentioned they were both fine instruments and his choice on the day would depend on his mood.

Of the two, were I an accomplished pianist with a budget, I'd go for the Steingraeber but then I might be able to bring the best out of a Bosendorfer.

Hi Sam,

I agree, I didn't state my intention well. The S&S forms a cohesive chordal sound where the intervals intertwine, for lack of a better word, than other pianos. Yet, the intervals remain distinct. It becomes like the sound of a truly fine wind section in a great orchestra. The individual personalities remain, but form a 'different' whole. It's hard to explain. The Bosendorfer is so harmonic/overtone rich that thick chordal passages, at higher volume levels, become somewhat of an overall muddle of "sonic splendor."

This is truly difficult to put into words. In simple terms, a major triad seems to be comfortable with itself.

Minnesota Marty, that is a very good description!

Thanks

I follow your observation, especially for Steinway, but I think different forces are at work.

Most notably in NY Steinway, you have the tone, the distant harmonics that give depth and the nearby harmonics that contribute to a thicker sound. The chords resolve well because of these nearby harmonics that settle into each other. With Bösendorfer, you have the tone and strong distant harmonics at regular intervals but fewer nearby harmonics. Here, a chord retains the individual notes more strongly for different effect.

If you ever want to quickly hear the difference, play a dissonant chord on the two back to back or, even more simple, play two adjacent notes. On the Steinway, the dissonance softens but on the Bösendorfer, the dissonance carries all the way. The sustain on Bösendorfer from pp to ff will hover almost supernaturally. For this reason, I've always thought Bösendorfer makes the best jazz piano because the chord expression can really wrench at the audience, push them up and pull them down, before letting them relax in a nice, resolved chord - even at lower dynamic levels. This is an unusual quality.

For these reasons, I associate Bösendorfer with clarity and Steinway with a more round, also beautiful character.

Separately, you mentioned the difference at higher dynamic levels. NY Steinway is readily associated with their growl, sonically speaking, a pleasing distortion that changes the tone radically as you reach forte and above. This is fun, predictable and controllable for amateurs and experts alike. Bösendofer's tone changes more evenly and actively resists this distortion point until the highest dynamic levels. I don't think it is about clarity, but it certainly is a different philosophy of design. When you finally reach that distortion point on a Bösendorfer, it is surprising and yes, a little violent, less likely to hover when compared to Steinway.

Sorry to sidetrack around Steingraeber. I've had fewer opportunities to enjoy them or compare side by side.

Well Sam, you're welcome to come visit - and I'll throw in a Napa Valley wine tasting! Probably best if we do that AFTER you compare the instruments though

Cheers! I'll be in touch.

Sam, hold out for a trip on the Napa Valley Wine Train.

Delightful!

(If only the train had both a Steingraeber and a Bosendorfer)

Even without a piano, that sounds like a stylish way to tour wine country.

My experience is that the Bosendorfer doesn't have as much "headroom" as the Steinway and the sound will get strained at a lower volume level in the Bosie than in the Steinway. I feel like they hit that distortion point sooner, and not in a particularly good way. The Bosie has many strengths but that's not one of them IMO.

That was a very good comparison of the Steinway and Bosendorfer design philosophies, Sam.

There are three other performance-grade piano lines that you carry - Estonia, Grotrian and Seiler. Can you compare them to Steinway and Bosendorfer?

It's natural to talk about the characteristics of concert grands as exemplar of these brands. For Steinway & Bösendorfer, I've had many experiences. I've had a few with Estonia beyond ours but only a few experiences with the largest Grotrian and only 1 with the largest Seiler.

I started to write about these but realized without the more opposing philosophies like Steinway vs. Bösendorfer, talking about the differences is talking in space.

At some point, I may be able to have a comparison recording of Bösie 200, Estonia L210, Grotrian 208 & Seiler 208. That would be a fun project.

Someone just brought to my attention an older thread that compares a Steinway B and a Steingraeber 205. Same pianist, same music, same space, same piano tech, same recording equipment etc. The original videos no longer linked since we have subsequently changed our youtube channel. I figured I would link it here since it seems to be the kind of thing people in this thread find interesting.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2267009.html#Post2267009

I must admit that I started reading this thread but after Alex's pot with the Bluthner recording skipped to post these lines.

I find that recordings are far from ideal to try and compare pianos.
Not only the acoustics, recording, piano preparation and players are different...but more importantly, some pianos have a presence that can rarely be captured even with high level recordings.

In addition...comparing concert grands played by professionals may be interesting if one wanted a concert grand for a room with 1200 people... and can play at such high level.
However, my guess is that most readers on this forum will be more interested in a comparison of home size pianos of this caliber...and the best purposes and uses in which they excel.

So for Keith, Alex and the others who expressed interest in such a comparison:

You have an open invitation to visit Allegro Pianos, which is the only place in the country where you can actually try many models of Bosendorfer, Steingraeber and Bluthner side by side...in the same quiet acoustics and prepared to their utmost by the same person.

Before you post more videos with the name of your store attached at the bottom for the good of all interested...just come by our Stamford showroom...when you can start with the Steingraeber 170, Bosendorfer 170 and Bluthner model 10.

Then, move to the Steingraeber 192, Bosendorfer models 185 / 200 and Bluthner model 6.
after a short rest you can move to test the Steingraeber 212, Bosendorfer 214 and Bluthner model 4..,and finally, try the Steingraber 232, Bosendorfer 225 and Bluthner model 2.

Of course, we have many other very fine pianos on the showroom floor, if you think you can handle the flavors and some concert grands as well...

So by all means, instead of analyzing videos make the time to visit here and post your impressions and input of these pianos afterwords.
Coffee and cake on me!

Oh...and Kieth, my friend, given that you know that such a comparison of so many high level European pianos is not available anywhere in the united states (even, including and perhaps especially at NAMM) do you think readers of this forum will find such a visit interesting and the ensued discussion rewarding?

Oooooooh - The plot thickens.

"I hear the Steinway performing the worst of the three pianos, in terms of drawing out different textures to highlight these compositional aspects. Is this not heard by others?"

Nope.

He does have a point. In addition to Bluthner, Bosendorfer, and Steingraeber, Ori also carries the Estonia and August Forster lines. I salivate at the prospect of a marathon audition of five performance-grade marques under one roof!

If my left arm ever recovers permanently, I have gotta get up to Stamford, Connecticut ... and New York ... and Philadelphia ... and Atlanta! Surely a piano suitable for me exists within the confines of those four cities!