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Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2264970
04/21/14 01:00 PM
04/21/14 01:00 PM
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LarryShone Offline
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Very cool, long overdue!


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Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: LarryShone] #2264975
04/21/14 01:28 PM
04/21/14 01:28 PM
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Wilhelm6 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LarryShone
Very cool, long overdue!

Just imagine if a cooperation would be with the like thought leaders, e.g. Stephen PAULELLO...

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265114
04/21/14 09:08 PM
04/21/14 09:08 PM
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Leicester, UK
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Mark Polishook Offline
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I played that piano at Hurstwood Farm last summer. It 's an amazing instrument!

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Mark Polishook] #2265192
04/22/14 05:46 AM
04/22/14 05:46 AM
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Quito, Ecuador - South America
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MiguelAngel07 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
I played that piano at Hurstwood Farm last summer. It 's an amazing instrument!


Hello Mark

Could you please share your recollections on the touch and tone of this piano, and in particular, how any aspects of both compare to a "traditional" instrument made out of wood?

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265209
04/22/14 07:13 AM
04/22/14 07:13 AM
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Mark Polishook Offline
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Miguel, I'll try to give you some further impressions. But in writing them down I'm realising it's not easy to explain. Because it really does come down to what any of us want to hear, feel, and see at the piano.

What struck me immediately is how much sound comes out of the all-CF instrument. It played very, very nicely and very very responsively. To the degree that when I was playing it I just said "wow!" The "wow" of amazement. The thing is, all of that gorgeous sound's coming out of a piano that looks like it's from the future. And the instrument is small - compared to a concert grand. So there's a lot of "awe" factor when playing it. In the same way if you've played a Steingraeber (or Phoenix) 168 or 170 those pianos produce much more sound (and it's gorgeous sound) than most probably think would come out of those instruments at that size.

W/that as background - comparing the all-CF instrument to a wood instrument is tricky. The reason I say that is because I didn't and don't have the sense that wood and carbon-fibre soundboards have their own distinctive sound. I know of course that some say they do ... so where anyone falls on that I'd say has a lot to do with personal choice and preference and probably too the specific instruments on which they've played.

I did play a bunch of pianos at Hurstwood Farm on the day I played the all-CF instrument. Some of them had CF boards rather than wood soundboards. At least one - the Steingraeber Phoenix 205 I purchased - had the Phoenix system but not a CF soundboard. And some of the pianos had Phoenix w/CF soundboards.

My opinion is what makes the significant difference in the sound and feel is the Phoenix system. I won't describe that here because excellent descriptions are on the Hurstwood Farm site and elsewhere on the internet.

The thing is, the Phoenix system brings clarity and sustain to the sound of the piano. But it's not clarity or sustain as in "this piano" is better than "that piano." It's just a handle to attach to the sound once it's been heard.

So, because I was there selecting (or trying to select) 1 piano from among 5 possibilities I didn't play the CF instrument with the same frame of mind I applied to the other 5. The "other" 5 were a Steingraeber 168, a Phoenix 170 (w/CF soundboard), a Phoenix 212 (w/CF soundboard) and a Steingraeber 190 - and the Steingraeber 205 w/Phoenix I ended up with. There was also a Steingraeber Phoenix 272 (w/o CF) I played there and a Bosendorfer Imperial Hurstwood Farm has available for on-premise recording and concerts.

For me, all of those pianos with or w/out carbon fibre were magnificent instruments. I mean MAGNIFICENT in the sense that the word "magnificent" needs to be capitalised! The all-CF instrument could easily go into any group of pianos including the ones I've just described and be a serious possibility as a final choice.

So that's why my opinion is it's the piano we experience as a whole rather than the one component or the other (wood or carbon fibre) as something that makes a really distinctive A/B kind of experience or comparison. The more pianos that go into the comparison pool the more, in my mind the A/B kind of difference between wood and CF becomes really of much less consequence. But that's my experience ...

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Mark Polishook] #2265233
04/22/14 08:44 AM
04/22/14 08:44 AM
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Wilhelm6 Offline OP
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Thank you for the impressive description. I didnt expect a such advanced stage of development so as to compare the CF prototype piano as early as with more traditional top-tier pianos w/Phoenix system concerning touch and tone. Quite promising!

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265243
04/22/14 09:25 AM
04/22/14 09:25 AM
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Quito, Ecuador - South America
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MiguelAngel07 Offline
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Mark, thanks a lot for your detailed description. Based upon your experience, it seems that there may be production version in the not too distant future. Quite an amazing feat by Richard Dain and his coworkers. Congratulations are in order.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2265246
04/22/14 09:25 AM
04/22/14 09:25 AM
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Conway, AR USA
bkw58 Offline

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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Finally !!!

The perfect piano for a truly fitting performance of La cathdrale engloutie.


Especially the finale. wink



Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265258
04/22/14 10:10 AM
04/22/14 10:10 AM
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Leicester, UK
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Mark Polishook Offline
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Wilhelm & Miguel - I believe they are now taking orders on the piano. But best to contact them directly - because they will have a definitive answer w/all details, etc smile

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265288
04/22/14 11:52 AM
04/22/14 11:52 AM
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Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Tennessee
Greetings.
It would seem to me that this is a piano that Don Gilmore should consider for his self-tuning application, since it seems that the termination points might be non-conductive. That would be an impressive piano, one that isn't particularly moisture sensitive, and could tune itself
REgards,

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Ed Foote] #2265371
04/22/14 02:33 PM
04/22/14 02:33 PM
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Wilhelm6 Offline OP
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That would be a really great mix of outstanding designs: climate resistant, durable, self-tuning!

I wonder if Rich will substitute the wooden bridges and keyboard with composite material as well. Perhaps a flatstrung design and an enlarged compass like Stephen PAULELLOs advanced piano project could evolve further potential.

Not least the lightweight CF piano could be a worthy successor of the famous 162 kgs year 1932 duralumin BLTHNER grand of LZ129 when it comes to grow very large passenger air plans or maybe new generations of huge air ships in the years to come. smile

[video:youtube]ogNCr8CQBX8[/video]
Original recording of the duralumin BLTHNER in the lounge of LZ129 HINDENBURG in-flight. You can hear the engines in the background as a dull humming noise.
Courtesy Dan GROSSMAN @ airships.net.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265416
04/22/14 04:25 PM
04/22/14 04:25 PM
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Leicester, UK
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Mark Polishook Offline
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Leicester, UK
Wilhelm, some Hurstwood Farm CF pianos have ribs and some don't. They've explored that aspect of design,and use both options depending on requirements.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: Mark Polishook] #2265430
04/22/14 05:09 PM
04/22/14 05:09 PM
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Wilhelm6 Offline OP
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Thats an interesting information. Do you know in which cases they use CF soundboards w/ ribs and when w/o ribs?

However, Udo STEINGRAEBER told me at 2014 Frankfurt Musikmesse by now they use only single-side veneered CF soundboards because of pure CF soundboards turned out to be inferior soundwise face-to-face, and so do dual-side laminated soundboards, since they get sluggish.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265528
04/22/14 07:42 PM
04/22/14 07:42 PM
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Leicester, UK
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Mark Polishook Offline
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No I can't speak to that. But, really, just contact Hurstwood Farm. They know all the details of course and cam tell you the how and why some instruments benefit from having them and some benefit w/out. And it's the same with the details of their CF soundboards. There's a lot of context and experience that goes along with the technical details so Richard Dain really is the best source.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Wilhelm6] #2265756
04/23/14 08:30 AM
04/23/14 08:30 AM
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Posts: 4,438
Southwestern Ontario
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prout Offline
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Southwestern Ontario
Did everyone read this part of the first post?

"Modern pianos are constructed using a cast iron frame and steel strings. The coefficient of expansion of the two materials is similar; therefore with change of ambient temperature the tension and therefore pitch in the strings remains relatively unchanged. A piano with a carbon fibre frame would expand minimally with rise in ambient temperature, yet the strings would expand and lose tension and pitch. A compensation method for temperature change had to be devised. The use of carbon fibre in the soundboard reduced the acoustic energy loss in the material of the instrument disproportionately in favour of higher frequencies. The research entailed determination of material quality and controlling energy input to the soundboard at different frequencies. In particular the efficiency of transmission of vibration energy in the strings was found to be so enhanced that longitudinal vibration in the strings became significant and had to be suppressed because it caused unwanted beat frequencies with the normal lateral vibration of the strings."

Very interesting.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: prout] #2265768
04/23/14 09:05 AM
04/23/14 09:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by prout
Did everyone read this part of the first post?

"Modern pianos are constructed using a cast iron frame and steel strings. The coefficient of expansion of the two materials is similar; therefore with change of ambient temperature the tension and therefore pitch in the strings remains relatively unchanged. A piano with a carbon fibre frame would expand minimally with rise in ambient temperature, yet the strings would expand and lose tension and pitch. A compensation method for temperature change had to be devised. The use of carbon fibre in the soundboard reduced the acoustic energy loss in the material of the instrument disproportionately in favour of higher frequencies. The research entailed determination of material quality and controlling energy input to the soundboard at different frequencies. In particular the efficiency of transmission of vibration energy in the strings was found to be so enhanced that longitudinal vibration in the strings became significant and had to be suppressed because it caused unwanted beat frequencies with the normal lateral vibration of the strings."

Very interesting.


Yes, indeed. How exactly was it suppressed?


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Ed Foote] #2265778
04/23/14 09:17 AM
04/23/14 09:17 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Greetings.
It would seem to me that this is a piano that Don Gilmore should consider for his self-tuning application, since it seems that the termination points might be non-conductive. That would be an impressive piano, one that isn't particularly moisture sensitive, and could tune itself
REgards,


Oh, swell. smirk


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAINs pioneering composite piano [Re: prout] #2265786
04/23/14 09:45 AM
04/23/14 09:45 AM
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Posts: 97
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Wilhelm6 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by prout
Did everyone read this part of the first post?

"Modern pianos are constructed using a cast iron frame and steel strings. The coefficient of expansion of the two materials is similar; therefore with change of ambient temperature the tension and therefore pitch in the strings remains relatively unchanged. A piano with a carbon fibre frame would expand minimally with rise in ambient temperature, yet the strings would expand and lose tension and pitch. A compensation method for temperature change had to be devised. The use of carbon fibre in the soundboard reduced the acoustic energy loss in the material of the instrument disproportionately in favour of higher frequencies. The research entailed determination of material quality and controlling energy input to the soundboard at different frequencies. In particular the efficiency of transmission of vibration energy in the strings was found to be so enhanced that longitudinal vibration in the strings became significant and had to be suppressed because it caused unwanted beat frequencies with the normal lateral vibration of the strings."

Very interesting.

prout, thanks a lot for that crucial recapitulation.

Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: bkw58] #2265790
04/23/14 09:55 AM
04/23/14 09:55 AM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
bkw58,
I suspect the L-mode problems are largely from the use of bridge agraffes. If you read my patent application for the "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" you will see my solution.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: "Black Power": Richard J. DAIN´s pioneering composite piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2265960
04/23/14 04:45 PM
04/23/14 04:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,071
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
bkw58,
I suspect the L-mode problems are largely from the use of bridge agraffes. If you read my patent application for the "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale" you will see my solution.


Thanks, Ed.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
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