Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum On Temperament strip muting, and other things

I was in discussion via PM with a fellow tuner/technician earlier this week, about ETD tuning vs aural and temperament strips and unisons as you go. I explained that I have tried all of these, at different times for a period of time, and now am tossing back and forth as to what methods I would like to use.

My fellow tuner was clear in what he held to and why, and I found myself being convinced to a certain degree of his stance on the subjects. As I thought through what he has said I have come my own conclusions as to my own direction and stance on the matters discussed.

Why do I write what I am writing here on PW? Because it may help someone, or some fellow tuner/technicians.

The fellow tuner/technician that I had some dialogue with earlier this week via email, is a very knowledgeable, capable and aspiring craftsman, and I respect him for his knowledge and diligence in the piano technology trade, and wish him all the best. I certainly hope that I may have the opportunity to meet him some day.

I am aware that ETD's have there place in the tuning world. I am aware that there are different camps. There are aural only tuners, ETD only tuners, and then there are hybrid tuners (those who employ aural and ETD). To each, his own.

I enjoy tuning aurally, and I think that I am a good aural tuner too, maybe not the best but that is not a problem for me, I keep learning and striving by God's grace to better myself, my service and business.

I have also used an ETD for a period of two years solid, 2011 and 2012. so I have that experience too.

I tune a variety of pianos, in a variety of conditions, and one thing I have learned, is that each and every tuning has aspects about it that make it a different experience from the last, though there may be some aspects that remain the same.

There are pianos that are worthwhile tuning aurally, and others that are not. Those that are not will get the ETD. There are pianos/situations/circumstances that demand a high level of precision, and these demand one's all, this is where, for me, and ETD is invaluable.

With regards to temperament tuning for ET, I have tried a number of different systems over the years, and incorporate certain aspects of each system to make up my own. I do tune a 4ths and 5ths method every now and again too, learning the fascinating value of this approach to tuning. There is a level of precision and self correction that this approach brings to tuning the temperament, that if one applies oneself to learning and understanding it, allows one to tune an ET temperament, never mind any other UT, if one has the desire or knowledge of the aural instructions involved in that.

BTW, I am not against UT tuning. I will tune them if asked to, using an ETD for the temperament setting.

With regards to muting techniques, there are a few floating around out there.

I have used a number of them, and the various mutations (pun intended) of these systems.

With aural tuning I have used the single mute, the two mute, strip mute and temperament strip.

With ETD tuning, I have used the same muting techniques above.

What is important in tuning, and muting techniques is at least two things, efficiency and stability.

This brings me to something that Dan Levitan has said,

There are two basic priciples of efficient and accurate tuning,

1. First principle - Set each tuning pin only once
2. Second principle - Keep time not spent setting tuning pins to a minimum.

Dan Levitan, in an article he wrote in 1996, said the following, (please take note that this is for aural tuning),

"There is more to the question than the dichotomy between the speed of strip muting versus the accuracy of single mutes, for tunings done with a strip also have the potential for greater consistency.

Using a strip mute to put each note in a given register on a single string makes it much easier to adjust parallel intervals and correct inconsistencies. This gang approach to tuning appeals to many tuners for the same reason as does the gang approach to much other piano work, such as rebushing keys. We don't find it particularly useful to take an individual key, remove it's bushing, cut out a little rectangle of cloth, glue it in, and make sure it fits just right before we move on. Not only would this approach be less efficient than the usual one, it would make it impossible for us to achieve the level of consistency that comes from treating the keys as a group of like parts to which we apply the same consistent set of procedures.

This is the sort of consistency that, in piano work at least, is not foolish. In the temperament, especially, one often wants to increase consistency by returning to notes that have already been tuned and making minute adjustments. For this reason even many tuners who tune the rest of the piano with single mutes like to strip mute the temperament."

Dan goes on to speak about the most efficient strip muting method of making two passes and how to go about that.

Regards,

I forgot an important point that my fellow piano tuner/technician, had to say with regards to muting when tuning with an ETD.

"You can either use a single mute and tune from left to right, or you can use two mutes and tune the center string first, then right, then left."

Though I agree with almost everything he has said in the above statement he made, I will say that if I am using a single mute, I will tune the right string in grands first, then center and then left. There is a slight variation of how to tune the left string. Does one tune the left string with all three strings open or to the center string only with the right string muted. To each, his own

In an upright, when using a single mute/paps wedge, I will tune the left string first and so on.

Mark it makes a difference tuning from doublets or with the 3 strings together. On a good piano, 3strings allow more possibilities, and the tone is more lively, I find.

Still I would tune one string of the next note before finishing the unison, for stability reasons.
Strip muting gives a clean tone, then the unison are always of the same type.
About 1,5 Hz more, one need to deal with bridge settling if a strip mute is used. Direct unison do not ask for as much corrections. I think.
Regards

Yes, Isaac, I know very well what your opinion is on the matter of muting methods and unisons, and I accept that, but it is one among several.

My main reason for posting what I have is, as I stated, to help someone who may need it.

I have spoken about the various options available and I have also posted some principles that lie behind tuning, which I think speak for themselves.

I will quote what another expert in piano technology has stated. I support what I am saying with well known experts to show the weight behind what I am saying, and to show the rationale behind these experts choices.

I think that what Dan Levitan has said, which I quoted in my first post is a reasonable, if not convincing case for the muting strip, if for the temperament only, and if tuning aurally, but acknowledge that it too is one of the opinions "out there".

David Love, who is now an ETD only tuner, wrote about a decade ago,

"When I was tuning aurally I found that the temperament strip (literally used for the temperament) was best. Since temperaments vary slightly on different pianos, using a single, or more commonly, a four mute method, which I tried, just ended up with to many redos of notes already tuned.

Since I tuned a two octave temperament, at least in part, I found that stripping A2, C#3, F3 - A4, worked the best. That allowed for minor adjustments to the temperament octave without have to retune entire unisons. After those unisons were pulled in, a two mute unisons as you go method worked best for me."

Hi Mark,

I appreciate your personal approach perspective, emphasizing "each to his own" preference.

I do want to make one observation. Dan Levitan compares the mute strip to batch work in piano repair and regulation. I agree that batch work in piano repair and regulation saves a lot of time.

However, it is my experience that Double String Unison, which uses one mute to mute one string, allows me to tune faster, more accurately, and with more stable unison when I'm finished, compared to using the mute strip. That's just my experience. Just because I have this experience, doesn't mean other people would have the same experience.

I do agree with Dan that the pin should be set in as few motions as possible. For me, DSU provides that.

I recently recorded myself tuning some octaves during a regular tuning. Using a golf analogy, where the first move of the string to final pitch is analogous to the drive off the tee, I recorded nine notes using octaves, and after aural confirmations, was able to get a few holes in one and some birdies using Beat Matching. I rate DSU with Beat Matching technique being a par 3 per note; one drive with beat matching, and two putts using shimming.

I thought you might like to hear about it and try it out, seeing that you are open to other techniques. This is used by only a few technicians and there is no systematic explanation of how it works or how to use it, as far as I know. But, like any technique, as you so insightfully write, they each have a variety of results with different technicians.

Best Regards,

Thanks Mark for your post and willingness to help, but I would appreciate it if you would keep your DSU technique and videos to your threads on the matter.

I do not have a problem with you posting your opinion on the matter here on my posts, but please do not use my threads as a springboard for self promotion, is all I kindly ask.

Thank you.

Regards,

This is the famous "Strong Arm" approach to why this technique is so called superior to others, which I find interesting and amusing, as all the other experts that I have read on temperament strip muting seem to think that it is the DSU tuning technique that has areas of weakness and therefore have chosen the technique they use.

It is a controversy, but maybe, let's try to not fight over it, and give the proponents of their systems a say on their opinions instead of trying to blow them out of the water. Then some may be able to formulate their own opinions without being beaten into submission.

I have heard both sides for a long time, just re-read what Dan and David have had to say (from experience), who I think have many more years of experience in tuning than you and I put together (at least I think).

Anyway, depending on what takes place I may not post again on this thread.

Thank you,

Best regards,

I am sorry but I did not understood ypour inquiry, I thought you where asking for opinions or ideas about muting and unison prctice.

I use and have used both of the most common ways, in the end I did not know what to say about. Sorry if this was out of the OP.

I'm confused as to why you seem to be taking offense to other people offering their opinions on the topic, Mark. This is a discussion forum, is it not?

WHat can be verified is that a fully tuned unison does not give the same activity than a single string. SO the eveness obtained with strip^muting can be at the expense of something (that I hardly can define at the moment).

Possibly strip muting (an easy way if the piano was not tuned correctly before) is better for some more policed type of piano, while tuning with full unison gives more liberty to the tuner.

Beats are somehow mysterious if we hear them as an activity level at large and not a simple partial match.
That may for instance give very lively and active major thirds that when analyzed have slower beats than one believe at first.

On the other hand, strip muting allow to keep the final tone vs the first central string consistent, in my opinion. the unison deconstruction is really something that can be done conscientiously then, more easily than than using the 3 strings.

Steinway consider the unison have to be tuned since the temperament, for their instruments.I did not make difference between both, methods for a long time , now I do.

Tuning means being at the service of the piano, so that is may be why the instrument is allowed to be more "present" in our listening, if we use fully tuned unison.

The point that is generally ovelooked is that intervals speed vary during the sustained time, for whatever reason. That variation is certainly modified by the 3 strings unison (made smaller, or accelerated ? )

That point should be of some concern, when we talk of "precision".

You mention in your first post that what you wrote may help someone. I would qualify as a someone.

With regard to tuning unisons, I find, when dealing with false beats, I need to tune the third string with the others unmuted, in order to find the null beat or, at least, the best compromise.

cheers

No need to be confused Adam!

I have stated that I do not mind Mark.C posting, and have only asked that he not use the thread as a promotion/springboard for his teaching business as this just brings an element into the threads that I think is not healthy.

Yes, it is a discussion forum.

Do you have any valuable input on muting techniques to offer for us to consider and to discuss?

I find this thread interesting, not unhealthy...except for the part telling people what they can and can not post.

Well, my apologies to all those that are offended with me telling Mark what he can and cannot post.

My apologies to Mark too!

It is just that one would think that the DSU technique has had at least a thorough hearing here on PW that I was trying to get the other side of the muting story out to have it's day.

But to all those who are offended, please rest assured that you are more than welcome to post what you like, hopefully on topic though.

There are plenty of examples out there of excellent technicians who use either approach - strip muting vs. unisons as you go. In consideration of this it is pointless to argue that one way is better than the other.

I've been an aural tuner for about 37 years and have limited experience with an ETD. Therefore, I'll limit my comments on muting methods to aural tuning. Both methods have strengths and weaknesses. Good tuners learn to make the best use of strengths and find methods to compensate for the weaknesses.

The big advantage to strip muting is that the entire piano is tuned on one string per note. This makes checking (and double checking) and making corrections easier. The big disadvantage is that unisons are not tuned until last. If the pitch of any note(s) has drifted during the unison tuning it will not be caught, if at all, until later. Technicians using this approach need to be extra careful in performing a final check on the entire tuning when they are done.

Unisons as you go has the advantage of allowing the tuner to hear the piano as the pianist will hear it. Since all previously tuned unisons will be used for testing as you go along, any discrepancies will (or should be) caught and corrected long before the tuning has been completed. Once a note is properly tuned it is "done" and should not move from there. The obvious disadvantage is that, when an error is found, it may be necessary to retune three strings instead of one.

Dan Levitan has discussed a hybrid technique in which the piano is strip muted, but unisons are tuned in sections, thereby reducing the likelihood of errors accumulating.

For novice tuners my advice would be to strip mute at first. It will be easier to tune temperament and octaves. Later on try unisons as you go. But, don't just try it once or twice. Make yourself work this way for several months. It can take that long to get used to a particular method of tuning.

To paraphrase, "...methods don't tune pianos, people tune pianos". Again, in the hands of an experienced and skilled tuner either approach can produce excellent results.

For what it is worth, my own approach is to use a felt strip for setting the temperament octave, tune the unisons and then "tweak" anything in the temperament that needs additional correction. The balance of the piano is then tuned unisons as you go. NOT saying this method is superior - just that it seems to work best for me.

Thanks Gerry.

I think you have summed it up well. What you say is the way I understand it too.

Let me get straight to the point then.

You are wrong to assume that, just because Dan Levitan says strip muting is akin to batch work, that it's true.

But maybe I misunderstood your position.

Hi Mark,

Please reread my post with more willingness to be impartial and not jump to any preconceived "strong arming" on my part. Kindly,



It is not blanketedly "superior to others".
I am not trying to "blow them out of the water" or "beat [them] into submission".

But I think everyone else reading this can see this clearly.

All the best,

I learned tuning via strip muting the entire piano. Starting out, I found it easier to hear/isolate beats that way. In some cases I still find it quicker than single mute, though those cases are usually pianos where the best tuning still won't sound all that great (spinets/old neglected consoles, etc). About a year ago I moved to stripping the temperament octave and doing the rest single mute/unisons as I go. I started out leaving the temperament strip in and doing those unisons last, but have recently started pulling in those unisons before moving on to the rest of the piano. I'm not sure whether I'll adapt that as my final method or go back to leaving those unisons to the end.

As Gerry said, there are many gifted tuners who use each of these methods, so it's really a matter of finding what works for you.

Mark,

There is more to Dan's article and argument for muting the temperament than the batch work example he gave. I just posted a small part of Dan's article, and I am not going to post anymore either. I think that the post I made which quotes what David Love says is also revealing to the weakness of the DSU technique.

I know and understand your preference, and respect that you use it and find it to be helpful, but I do not want to know or understand anymore about it, right now, though if you feel you need to say something about it here, feel free to do so.

Thank you.

Regards,