Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Bösendorfer vs Steingraeber

I would never base my opinion of a piano on a recording. I've heard recordings then gone and played the same piano afterward and usually left with the impression that the piano didn't sound much like the recording.

A recording is better than no direct info at all on a piano's sound. Piano buyer and PW posts, as good as they are, are just descriptions of sound and action. Playing the actual instrument, of course, is better than listening to a recording.

I can say with some confidence that the Pandolfi recording fairly depicts the sound of that particular piano.

Seriously: is there anyone out there that has an interest in discussing non-commercial agendas? There are so many issues pertaining to artistry that could be discussed with these two videos. Does anyone care, or is this forum a litmus test for the current state of the arts?

1. Artistic Interpretation
How close do each of the pianist come to what is indicated in the score? Are either pianist doing anything artistically unique/special, especially that which is inline with the composer's implied instructions? This piece is essentially about old bitchy love that has weathered the test of time. She wishes he'd die already and fantasizes about standing at he's grave--that's when she begins to realizes that she would miss him; she begins to understand that they should cherish every moment together. In order to get her to this realization, the poem depicts intense graveyard lamentations (i.e., this is not a romantic Disney love story of fairy-tail romance). How did these pianists convey that in their interpretations? Are the pianists using the limitations of each of the pianos to their advantage when presenting their ideas? Were they thinking about anything?

2. Pianist Technique
Both of these pianists use their body and muscles in a different an interesting manner; that alone is worthy of a discussion. How did they use their shoulders, their arms, their fingers to bring forth their intended musical ideas? Was there anything unhealthy or distracting with their motions?

3. Piano Sounds
How were the pianos tuned, voiced, and regulated? There may be a lot going on here. Could anything be improved? The fundamental sound concepts are drastically different between these two pianos: one has more punch and the other has more body. In piano design, you must decide where on this spectrum you wish to fall: if you expend more energy in the attack, there is not as much left over for the body (i.e., decay portion of the sound). There are times when both of these approaches in performance are seriously needed (e.g., in terms of genre, performance space, etc.). There is no such thing as the ideal piano: we need variety--we need the extremes and we need everything in the middle!

4. Recording
It might be interesting for people to know what, if any, post-production enhancements were done to the audio. Where were the microphones placed--what kinds were they? Was there anything special done to eliminate unnecessary room noise? What about the lighting: any special concerns/approaches? What kind of format are people recording in these days? Can anyone do that at home, or is the equipment prohibitively expensive? What might the people who made these videos do better for the next time?

So, just to have more fun, here is another recording of the same piece on a concert grand Steingraeber ( the other was a smaller piano being compared to the Bose Imperial )
Unfortunately, the sound quality in this one is just from the video recorder's mic, so the recorded sound leaves much to be desired. Still, it is fun to happen to have yet another excellent performance of the same music on a different Steingraeber. You may notice this piano to have a much brighter sound. Part of that is the quality camcorder mic up too close, but it is also that this piano is voiced to project and cut through a large reverberant room.

Right, its better than nothing at all. I, for one, appreciate videos of pianos posted by anyone.

"Seriously: is there anyone out there that has an interest in discussing non-commercial agendas? There are so many issues pertaining to artistry that could be discussed with these two videos. Does anyone care, or is this forum a litmus test for the current state of the arts?"

As a newcomer to the world of pianos, I would certainly love to see a discourse along the lines suggested by "A443". After reading the questions asked on his/her post, I was able to gain so much from watching the two videos again.

Could you guys/gals take a stab at commenting and answering the questions asked?

Generally, it is in the Pianist Corner that questions of performance are discussed. This forum is focused on the piano as an instrument, rather than the technical and artistic skills of playing.

To be fair, the "Piano Forum" is a forum about instruments. That's what we discuss here.

The Adult Beginner's Forum is about music-making aimed at those who start (or re-start) piano as adults.

The Pianist Corner Forum is where I would expect the focus of the discussion to be precisely what A443 proposes.

So yes, there is a place for that discussion. But no, this isn't necessarily the ideal place.

In particular, the following quote from A443 was very insightful:

"3. Piano Sounds
How were the pianos tuned, voiced, and regulated? There may be a lot going on here. Could anything be improved? The fundamental sound concepts are drastically different between these two pianos: one has more punch and the other has more body. In piano design, you must decide where on this spectrum you wish to fall: if you expend more energy in the attack, there is not as much left over for the body (i.e., decay portion of the sound). There are times when both of these approaches in performance are seriously needed (e.g., in terms of genre, performance space, etc.). There is no such thing as the ideal piano: we need variety--we need the extremes and we need everything in the middle!"

After reading it, I was better able to understand fundamental differences between these two great pianos.

A discussion along these lines would be quite useful and pertinent to the nature of this particular forum.

uhhhhh...well...mmmm....I guess my point was: perhaps we could talk about ANY aspect of piano that doesn't lead to a commercial agenda. That is not interesting; that is not a discussion; that just is...[stupid].

OK, so we shouldn't talk about technical and artistic aspects and how they relate to and influence each of the performances; that's fine. But, there are still so many things that we could discuss about the pianos in the two examples. Right?

I'll start:
One of the aspects I find amazing about a 290 is that the extra strings can be timed early to enhance the reverberance of the room. This is easily adjustable, and gives the pianist some control over the 'wetness' of the room's sound. At c.1:30 on this recording you can hear this effect pretty well. TIP: listen to the video at 1080; the audio is less compressed.
[video:youtube]PtHhAuSptpY[/video]

Seems to 360 only, how to listen at 1080?

@Withindale, as of right now, it seems like you I can only change the setting to 720 from within this context. It is probably best to click on the YouTube icon on the lower right of the screen and view it from the YouTube page. There you can select 1080p setting with the gear-looking icon (i.e., settings) on the bottom of the view screen.

Also, if you want to hear what I am talking about, earphones would be helpful if your environment is too noisy.

@A443, here in Suffolk, England, YouTube offers only 360p for Kima Mimaki and 480p for Thomas Pandolfi so I'm still wondering about the "wetness" of a room's sound!

@Withindale, I'm not sure why only 360 is offered in your location...

You can still hear it at 360p though. At 1:31-1:33, you are not hearing pedal (i.e., the dampers are all down on the strings, except for the extra bass notes)--you are ONLY hearing sympathetic reverberation coming from the lowest octave [C0 to B-flat0] at that timing; the dampers go down on the strings at 1:30.

Naturally, this effect is also happening throughout the entire time the piano is being play; the only difference being that at this special point in the recording, that is the ONLY kind of sound that is being heard (i.e., it is similar to the reverberance of a larger hall)--the rest of the time, notes that have been struck are also sounding, so it is much harder to isolate the effect.

If anyone really wants to hear this, please use earphones--it's really soft at that section.

re: room wetness via the extra bass notes on a 290

Here is a different example of how the extra bass strings can be adjust to make the room more reverberant; this is a slightly different set-up than the Liebesträume example. It is the same piano, in the same small dry space (i.e., the living room/kitchen is c.200 sq ft). There is no post-processing of the audio--no reverb, no EQ, and the mics are internal from the camera.

In this example, the dampers on the extra bass notes never come completely down on the strings. It is arguably a bit too much reverb, but at least it demonstrates what is possible with extra bass strings/notes:
[video:youtube]_bKZFVUwQqg[/video]

@443, I hear what you say about the reverb.

Incidentally the Burgmüller comes up at 1080 within PW but only at 360 on YT. This piece of Liszt allows HD in YT here in Suffolk:

Keith,

In his opinion in this blog the HighEndPianoGuy says Bösendorfers are low rim tension pianos while Steingraebers are high rim tension instruments.

Would you and others agree that is significant to their tone?

I can't tell which piano I prefer, but I can tell which recorded sound I prefer, and I prefer the Bosendorfer between the Steingraeber and the Bosendorfer, and the Bluthner concert grand above them both. I think in this case it has less to do with the actual pianos and more to do with microphone placement or recording type, because when I've heard these models in the flesh I've thought they were all equally beautiful.

This is a perceptive statement, joe80. In reality, if we do not know what mic. type and placement is used or if the video/audio went through any processing post recording, anything like these video comparisons are misleading to the listener.

Having siad that, while I have my preferences, I can confidently say that all the instruments in these videos are very fine pianos.

My 2 cents,

+1

Funny how often the most sensible posts go unnoticed here...