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#2268179 - 04/28/14 11:38 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Iori Fujita]  
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by Iori Fujita

On the contrary, I think that the basic temperament should be the pure temperament and the 12 tone-equal temperament, and that other various temperament systems are nothing but compromise. Moreover the pure temperament, I think, can be only a little modified version of the 12 tone-equal temperament.


Greetings,
The 'pure' temperament ? I know that ET is an orderly series of compromises, all others are "nothing but" compromises?
I think some definitions are in order for the above to make sense, as it isn't clear what is actually being said.

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#2268181 - 04/28/14 11:44 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Ed Foote]  
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Iori Fujita

On the contrary, I think that the basic temperament should be the pure temperament and the 12 tone-equal temperament, and that other various temperament systems are nothing but compromise. Moreover the pure temperament, I think, can be only a little modified version of the 12 tone-equal temperament.


Greetings,
The 'pure' temperament ? I know that ET is an orderly series of compromises, all others are "nothing but" compromises?
I think some definitions are in order for the above to make sense, as it isn't clear what is actually being said.


Probably means "just intonation" rather than pure temperament.


Semipro Tech
#2268236 - 04/28/14 02:33 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: BDB]  
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Iori Fujita

On the contrary, I think that the basic temperament should be the pure temperament and the 12 tone-equal temperament, and that other various temperament systems are nothing but compromise. Moreover the pure temperament, I think, can be only a little modified version of the 12 tone-equal temperament.


Greetings,
The 'pure' temperament ? I know that ET is an orderly series of compromises, all others are "nothing but" compromises?
I think some definitions are in order for the above to make sense, as it isn't clear what is actually being said.


Probably means "just intonation" rather than pure temperament.


I suppose, yet, if I plug "just intonation" into the sentence instead of "pure", it still makes no sense, to me, so I await a better explanation. It is also hard to tell if a poster is working from the psycho/acoustic/feedback/stretching-years of tuning, or a student that has read "all" the books. I don't know what path would lead one to propose a basic temperament that was a Just and ET. Wait and see. I suppose I could say "I'm just waiting".
regards,

#2268308 - 04/28/14 06:21 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Withindale]  
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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by acortot
Old European pianos had a fixed resonance or 'EQ' which gave them a 'vocal' quality and sometimes you see that certain notes 'drop' in tension where the board resonates.. this is a sort of compensating by listening that some more obsessive manufacturers used to do.

Acortot, your post is very interesting but would you please explain the sentence I have quoted in more detail?

How much did the increase in tension, due to stronger frames and wires, during the second half of the 19c affect the situation?


In the early 1800's there were dozens of piano builders, who worked independently, in small workshops like guitar-builders do today.

The big names that had proper factories and produced a lot of pianos were fewer. Broadwood was probably the first industrial piano and it relied very much on string tension.

The British pianos I've seen were relatively simple and you could say that they were the forerunner to the modern piano because they had access to the hardest steel wire (British Steel).

But the French pianos in particular had a nasal resonant frequency by comparison to today's pianos and American pianos like Steinway etc.

Many French Pianos often had cutoff and tone bars that tuned the soundboard way into the late 1800's

Perhaps because of the lower tension the soundboard was more free to vibrate and resonate and the builders exploited this.

Today's pianos are perhaps less a product of such fine-tuning and more a product of industrial optimization, I suppose.

String tensions being what they are, have compensated for the rest of the design. Modern Piano-sound is also different than the old sound.

yet, for example, Pleyel pianos, which were already cross-strung and had become similar to Steinway et al still had a bit of the 'vocal' resonance in the 1930's

listen to this recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e22O1PUJyw

compared to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXYw6EkDuTg

The first is a 30's Pleyel and the second is a later Steinway.

historically speaking, these soundboards are typical of French design:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2010/05/french-soundboards-tavole-armoniche.html

there were many different styles of soundboard bracing, as constant experimentation was going-on at the time.

Temperament and harmony in general makes more of a difference on the older wood-framed pianos compared to todays, in a way.

One only needs to think about a choir of strings for one note tuned in unison. Since the soundboard 'gives' if two strings are perfectly in tune and the other is only slightly out-of-tune doesn't the third string 'fall into place' anyway because of sympathetic vibration?

If you consider this to be true then think about a perfect chord 'falling into place' because of the vibration of the wooden frame and how that would in some way reinforce some chords and create additional harmonics for other chords?

so, I guess that on the highly-damped soundboards of today the effects obtained with harmony and temperament will be different and just perhaps not as noticeable, but maybe it's still worth trying to see if a non-equal temperament can work with a modern piano.

I'd start with the later temperaments, used in the late 1800's first. After all by 1880 Steinways were already on the scene and tensions were pretty high compared to the early part of the century.

sorry for the long post


Last edited by acortot; 04/28/14 06:34 PM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
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#2268333 - 04/28/14 07:12 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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There is some basic misuse of terminology in the post from the gentleman from Tokyo. The word, "pure" does imply and is synonymous with "just intonation" which means beatless intervals. In other words, the intervals are not tempered. So, there can be no such thing as a "pure temperament"! Of course, we have to afford some leniency to someone for whom English is not the first language but I am sorry to say, found the post from the gentleman from Tokyo to be completely incomprehensible.

I also saw a page full of math which I admit is beyond anything I know but anytime I have ever seen someone use that kind of math to make a case for anything at all about tuning esthetics, it always plainly demonstrates a complete lack of any knowledge whatsoever of what those esthetics are. Hence, we get the inventor of the Strobe Tuner and the Lawrence Welk orchestra piano being tuned "straight to the Strobe" with the idea that it must be the one and only correct solution.

Not to be outdone by the mathematical theorist and the "pure temperament", whatever that may be, the technicians who participate on such a topic as this who have no real experience or knowledge about Cycle of 5ths based temperaments are full of how they "wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried".

Temperament has no effect on emotions but that "sour sound" makes one's skin crawl! It is repulsive but that is not an emotional response. If any and all talk about this subject that so many technicians wish would just go away, die and fade into obscurity, this forum would be such a more peaceful and tranquil place but that is not an emotional response to the very idea of an unequal temperament, of course.

And then, the mere mention of the possibility of Reverse Well as a consequence of sheer ignorance about what one is trying to accomplish with temperament and the outcries that it could never happen, it does not exist, no one has ever heard of it or heard it anywhere, accusations of making false statements, denial that what is plainly there, is what it is, etc., none of those are emotional responses either.

Well temperaments don't do what their proponents claim. They have no effect at all except to make the piano sound wrong! Nobody can really hear the distinctions in the milder Well temperaments yet the slightest irregularity in beat speeds of Major thirds is an area of major importance! The more perfectly equal the temperament, the better the music from the piano will sound but there are no appreciable qualities from any Cycle of 5ths based temperament that matter at all, except either the "sour sound" they make or the "dead sound" they make! Therefore, they wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried! None of that is an emotional response.

All of the above being said upon a foundation of no experience or any real knowledge whatsoever! We might as well really believe that Bach invented ET and wrote his two books of music to prove how great it was and it changed music history forever and for the better. Nothing we hear today could have ever existed had it not been for that single turning point in music history!

It's really unfortunate that the above is not really true at all and that no music ever composed during or since Bach's time ever had ET as a requirement or was made possible only because of ET. It is such a convenient explanation that phony books are written which say that and phony TV documentaries are made to make you think that it is what actually happened but it is all a complete fabrication!

The technicians who participate on this topic who continually say that the use of anything but ET is somehow a misguided goal need to consider that for those technicians such as myself who know better than that, we make our living doing what you would never do! We don't have clients who only hear "sour sounds" or "dead sounds".

We have clients who make such comments as, "For the very first time anyone has tuned my piano, it really made music!" We have music directors who tell opera and symphony choruses, "Listen carefully to the piano for your pitch". We have high school music teachers who find a way to have a piano tuned several times a year because they finally have heard true harmony coming from it and recognize how the students respond to it. They find a way to pay for our services at fees far above what others charge and far more frequently than normal school budgeting had ever allowed before.

We have private clients who had tried various technicians and have come back to us because they found a kind of epiphany in the way we have made their pianos sound that other technicians never did. We have other technicians from other parts of the USA and other countries writing to us to say what wonderful revelations have been made to them.

Some of us have been doing what we do for so long that what we see written here that would attempt to say to us that what we do "wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried" seems patently ridiculous! I have no intention of giving it up and I am actively teaching it to technicians who have seen the value in it. To all others, I simply say, "It is your loss, not mine."


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#2268344 - 04/28/14 07:38 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Thanks Bill,

You must be very proud of your work.

But tell me. Who here has been telling you "what we do wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried". That surely seems arrogant.

It is so nice to get all that positive feedback. I would suggest that there may be more to the quality of your work than just the temperament. Your concept of octave tuning surely adds to the brilliance of the tone as well.

I have all kinds of similar responses to my work including "The piano has never sounded so good", "I can't walk by it now without playing it", "It sounds so awesome, I don't want to sell it anymore". But I only tune in ET. Perhaps if I could tune a historical temperament, I would get more like that. What do you think?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2268375 - 04/28/14 08:33 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Mark, I have been told for 25 years that what I do wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried, so I don't think you should ever try it either.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#2268412 - 04/28/14 09:58 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Haha! Good one.

Seriously though, I can't understand why anyone would say UT wouldn't work.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2268551 - 04/29/14 08:22 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Haha! Good one.

Seriously though, I can't understand why anyone would say UT wouldn't work.


Well, think of all the composers for whom it didn't work - all of the renaissance composers, all of the baroque composers, all of the rococo composers... Clearly they couldn't write music because the keyboards were all tuned in GTs.

#2268568 - 04/29/14 08:41 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Haha! Good one.

Seriously though, I can't understand why anyone would say UT wouldn't work.


Well, think of all the composers for whom it didn't work - all of the renaissance composers, all of the baroque composers, all of the rococo composers... Clearly they couldn't write music because the keyboards were all tuned in GTs.

Prout - I think that you have misread what Mark has written. The eras you mentioned is when UT was employed and enjoyed as the norm. Mark has agreed that a UT would work.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2268571 - 04/29/14 08:47 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: prout]  
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I find it interesting to play pieces transposed to various keys in well-temperament to see if I can really notice a difference.

For this purpose I find this sitehttp://en.scorser.com/S/Sheet+music/Piano/-1/1.html
a great resource.

For many pieces you can download an editable file (if you have some note editor software) and transpose pieces to any key and print them out and try for yourself how they sound in different keys.

Kees

#2268575 - 04/29/14 08:53 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Haha! Good one.

Seriously though, I can't understand why anyone would say UT wouldn't work.


Well, think of all the composers for whom it didn't work - all of the renaissance composers, all of the baroque composers, all of the rococo composers... Clearly they couldn't write music because the keyboards were all tuned in GTs.

Prout - I think that you have misread what Mark has written. The eras you mentioned is when UT was employed and enjoyed as the norm. Mark has agreed that a UT would work.


I was joking. Remember, I am a "pro ut" person.

#2268578 - 04/29/14 08:58 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: DoelKees]  
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
I find it interesting to play pieces transposed to various keys in well-temperament to see if I can really notice a difference.

For this purpose I find this sitehttp://en.scorser.com/S/Sheet+music/Piano/-1/1.html
a great resource.

For many pieces you can download an editable file (if you have some note editor software) and transpose pieces to any key and print them out and try for yourself how they sound in different keys.

Kees


Thanks for the source. That will be very useful.

I have a number of vocal works that are in several transposed keys. In Young, they sound VERY different, as they tend to be transposed up or down a major third. This makes them lose the original character, and in some cases, makes them unusable.

#2268589 - 04/29/14 09:33 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout


I was joking. Remember, I am a "pro ut" person.




LOL...LOL...lol...


"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
#2268624 - 04/29/14 11:24 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Oh, I get it. That was funny. Now we're having fun. (I need a life.)


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2268659 - 04/29/14 12:35 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Yee-Haa - Mark is becoming another Pro-UT !!!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2268677 - 04/29/14 01:20 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: acortot]  
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Originally Posted by acortot
Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by acortot
Old European pianos had a fixed resonance or 'EQ' which gave them a 'vocal' quality and sometimes you see that certain notes 'drop' in tension where the board resonates.. this is a sort of compensating by listening that some more obsessive manufacturers used to do.

Acortot, your post is very interesting but would you please explain the sentence I have quoted in more detail?


In the early 1800's there were dozens of piano builders, who worked independently, in small workshops like guitar-builders do today....

Thank you, acortot, for your most interesting and comprehensive answer.

Looking at your blog, it becomes clear that changes in temperament went hand in hand with the developments of the instrument in ways many of us will find hard to appreciate today.



Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2268686 - 04/29/14 01:39 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Iori Fujita]  
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Mr. Fujita, thanks for your comprehensive and logical approach.

It saddens me to see this vitriol and complete misunderstanding concerning temperament. The more misinformed opinions spout, the more confused young ones in the world, trying to learn, will become.

Temperament is not a difficult issue to understand, aside from the dire lack of scholarly input. This wash of incorrect explanation does make it nearly impossible to penetrate.

Fixed tone solutions which rely on one rate of curvature for tuning (all keyboard instruments) will never have all intervals in tune. But this is simply a resolution problem! Equal temperaments such as 53-TET allow almost all common intervals to be pure. Infinite resolution or fluid pitch can achieve purity everywhere!

Mathematicians understand this. Physicists know that exact whole number ratios have little to do with pure intervals because of a concept called bandwidth on real instruments.

Unequal temperament is beautiful testament to variable tone solutions on a fixed tone instrument. Equal temperament on our modern instruments became a beautiful solution only because of increased bandwidth, increased inharmonicity and the scientific understanding needed to apply it.

Over matters of art and taste, what is the point of argument?


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
#2268871 - 04/29/14 09:27 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Tunewerk]  
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Whenever I feel confused by the different commas and the way they relate to temperaments, I just look at this diagram and everything becomes clear. smile
Just intonation is the point in the middle and each green line represents a family of temperaments where a certain comma is tempered out. At points where two lines intersect, both commas are tempered out and the result is an equal temperament.
The syntonic comma is tempered out on the meantone line and the pythagorean comma is tempered out on the aristoxenean line. 12-TET is the point where these lines intersect.

The problem with most explanations of temperaments, is that they explain the pythagorean comma and describe it as the reason for tempering intervals, but this isn't really true. In fact, the only comma that has to be tempered out, is the syntonic comma.
The reason for this is that our musical notation is based on the pythagorean tuning, where a major third (81:64) is tuned as a chain of four fifths. When using 5:4 thirds, the difference between a third and four fifths is a syntonic comma (81:80) but when composers started using these consonant thirds, they kept using the pythagorean notation and simply pretended that the comma didn't exist. That's why we have to use a tempered tuning, but this fact seems to be poorly understood.

There is, however, no musical reason for tempering out the pythagorean comma, since composers (usually) make a distinction between notes such as A flat and G sharp. Using subsemitones is a better alternative, from a musical point of view.
Originally Posted by Tunewerk

Fixed tone solutions which rely on one rate of curvature for tuning (all keyboard instruments) will never have all intervals in tune. But this is simply a resolution problem! Equal temperaments such as 53-TET allow almost all common intervals to be pure. Infinite resolution or fluid pitch can achieve purity everywhere!

As I explained above, adding more keys is an alternative to tempering out the pythagorean comma, but this doesn't solve the problem with the syntonic comma. This is not only a problem for fixed pitch instruments; singers, trombone players and violinists all have to deal with the syntonic comma, in one way or another.
It is true that 53-TET makes all consonances nearly pure, but as you can see in the diagram, it doesn't temper out the syntonic comma, so it cannot work with standard musical notation.

#2268935 - 04/30/14 12:36 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Tunewerk]  
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Originally Posted by Tunewerk
(excerpt)

Over matters of art and taste, what is the point of argument?

+1

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
(excerpt)

If I say ET is beautiful to me, who has the right to tell me it is not?

+1


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2268953 - 04/30/14 02:52 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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I know that piano tuning should be done with the special skill and knowledge. It is not the matter of the temperament issue alone. For one tone there are two or three rigid strings each of which should be tuned slightly different. And there are many other delicate aspects which are important.
With a few exceptions, many pianists use the equally tempered pianos for their recordings and recitals of Bach's works. It is a fact.
In Japan there was a man who claimed "The equal temperament will destroy the Earth." But this equal temperament makes us free to use notes as words like a,b,c,,.There are 12 notes in an octave. We can talk music as a language. It is great.
Iori Fujita

#2268969 - 04/30/14 03:39 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Iori Fujita]  
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Originally Posted by Iori Fujita

We can talk music as a language. It is great.



After all, without music life would Bb.


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
#2269026 - 04/30/14 09:28 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: bkw58]  
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Originally Posted by bkw58
Originally Posted by Tunewerk
(excerpt)

Over matters of art and taste, what is the point of argument?

+1

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
(excerpt)

If I say ET is beautiful to me, who has the right to tell me it is not?

+1


I agree as well - but...

There are conflicting aims for a tuner (I think, not being a pro myself), to satisfy the desires of a single customer, or a concert pianist, or the management of a concert hall or institution with multiple pianos, and yet temper the way you find most beautiful. Would you tune a honky tonk temperament, or 1/4 comma meantone for all the pianos you tune because that is what you find most beautiful, or do you compromise and tune what the customer wants?

As I mentioned in another thread - If that is not the case, why are instruments tuned at all, and why have musicians and composers agonized over tunings for hundreds of years? The music that composers write presupposes some form of organization of the relations between notes that they want to hear and expect the listener to hear. Is it not our job to try our best to provide that foundation on which to perform their music?

#2269034 - 04/30/14 09:51 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Withindale]  
Joined: Jun 2007
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acortot Offline
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acortot  Offline
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Posts: 581
Italy
Originally Posted by Withindale

Thank you, acortot, for your most interesting and comprehensive answer.

Looking at your blog, it becomes clear that changes in temperament went hand in hand with the developments of the instrument in ways many of us will find hard to appreciate today.



You're welcome, thank you for asking.


Speaking of 'trying-out' different temperaments, to get a rough idea I use midi-files derived from piano-rolls of my favourite old pre-war pianists and listen to the result on a piano-simulating software that has the possibility of changing temperament when playing-back a performance.

I find it useful to listen to a specific composition in a specific period temperament to hear if the temperament is flattering to the composition or is shedding some light on the key-changes within the composition..

obviously the tuning on a real piano is going to sound different but to 'get an idea' I personally find it to be quite useful.

Last edited by acortot; 04/30/14 09:59 AM.

rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario
#2269042 - 04/30/14 10:26 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Withindale Offline
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Withindale  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,511
Suffolk, England
Originally Posted by acortot
... piano-simulating software that has the possibility of changing temperament when playing-back a performance.

I've never tried that. Is there some open source software that's suitable?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2269301 - 04/30/14 09:42 PM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: LarryShone]  
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Lucas Brookins RPT Offline
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Lucas Brookins RPT  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 203
Janesville WI


Lucas Brookins, RPT
#2269383 - 05/01/14 12:24 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Yee-Haa - Mark is becoming another Pro-UT !!!


Marty, bite your tongue. "Turn away from the light. Don't follow the light."


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2269387 - 05/01/14 12:39 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Lucas Brookins RPT]  
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BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,333
Oakland
Originally Posted by That Tooner


Equally bad?


Semipro Tech
#2269409 - 05/01/14 01:35 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Lucas Brookins RPT]  
Joined: Mar 2005
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Grandpianoman Offline
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Grandpianoman  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Yikes!...ouch, ugh ugh ugh................

#2269470 - 05/01/14 07:42 AM Re: I just can't get my head around temperament! [Re: Lucas Brookins RPT]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,045
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,045
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by That Tooner


I believe it's OOT.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
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