Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
62 registered members (AdrianR, ando, anotherscott, AprilE, Bambers, BachToTheFuture, 13 invisible), 774 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2264131 - 04/19/14 02:29 PM Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 24
YoungNoir Offline
Full Member
YoungNoir  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 24
Hi everyone,

Basically I'm just wondering how everyone who plays this piece goes about playing the 11-6 notes, for e.g the 2nd bar. My teacher says only the first note should 'match' the left and all the others should be played seperatly. My question is what is the most effective way to practice this?

Thanks

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2264132 - 04/19/14 02:34 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,990
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member
JoelW  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,990
USA
Play it slowly until it works itself out.

#2264141 - 04/19/14 03:00 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: JoelW]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
Originally Posted by JoelW
Play it slowly until it works itself out.

Bad advice. Practice the passage hands separately and then combine them at tempo.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264145 - 04/19/14 03:04 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Practice the passage hands separately and then combine them at tempo.

This is highly inefficient and mostly a waste of time when not using this method to sort out technical issues. The coordination between the hands of a conflicting bimanual task is a cross-talk event of the brain hemispheres and putting the hands together should be done from the onset.

The "practice hands separate then combine" method is profoundly not backed by science.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2264147 - 04/19/14 03:07 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Atrys]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Practice the passage hands separately and then combine them at tempo.

This is highly inefficient and mostly a waste of time when not using this method to sort out technical issues. The coordination between the hands of a conflicting bimanual task is a cross-talk event of the brain hemispheres and putting the hands together should be done from the onset.

If one can, yes. But evidently the OP is not able to do that yet.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264152 - 04/19/14 03:13 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

If one can, yes. But evidently the OP is not able to do that yet.

Not at tempo, but JoelW is correct to say to practice slow and work up; this is how the brain best works out the coordinated motor sequences of conflicting bimanual tasks. Hands separate practice is best used to sort out specific issues of one hand apart from the other, but as far as getting the two hands to "work together", there is no better substitute than to practice the conflicting bimanual task itself (under tempo, if needed).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14697399


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2264154 - 04/19/14 03:16 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Atrys]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

If one can, yes. But evidently the OP is not able to do that yet.

Not at tempo, but JoelW is correct to say to practice slow...

How will that work with this passage?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264158 - 04/19/14 03:23 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

How will that work with this passage?

How do you mean? In the beginning stages, rhythm and tempo is not important; what is important is to play hands together such that the notes that ought to be played at once in both hands are indeed played simultaneously. Any notes in between can be played however you'd like.

The purpose is to teach the brain how to handle a new conflicting bimanual task. Once the prefrontal cortex and other critical regions of the brain begin to delegate the coordination of the task, capacity is "freed up" to allow you to integrate higher tempo and rhythm, this is how one is able to play without thinking of the motor actions, and focus more on higher level details at your will.

Last edited by Atrys; 04/19/14 03:24 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2264163 - 04/19/14 03:33 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
That's a terrible idea. Ignoring rhythm? That's going to get you nowhere.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264165 - 04/19/14 03:37 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
That's a terrible idea. Ignoring rhythm? That's going to get you nowhere.

Your position is not backed by science and you offer no evidence but "that's a terrible idea". Ignoring rhythm in the beginning stages of learning a new conflicting bimanual task is highly efficient and is aligned with how bimanual tasks are adapted into the human brain.

Remember that just because an idea is "new" and different than what you're used to doesn't mean it isn't true. It's science.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2264168 - 04/19/14 03:43 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,785
bennevis Offline
9000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,785
I recommend that you learn each hand's part thoroughly (HS if necessary) until you can play each automatically, whatever else is going on (e.g. try playing a scale with the other hand, totally out of rhythm with that part). Then with the complete hand independence achieved, you'll find it easy to fit the two hands together.

Adjust the speed of your RH notes while keeping LH in strict time until you find the
'compromise' that fits, and practise that. Don't forget that the RH part can be played quite freely, with rubato.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2264170 - 04/19/14 03:46 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Atrys]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
That's a terrible idea. Ignoring rhythm? That's going to get you nowhere.

Your position is not backed by science and you offer no evidence but "that's a terrible idea". Ignoring rhythm in the beginning stages of learning a new conflicting bimanual task is highly efficient and is aligned with how bimanual tasks are adapted into the human brain.

Remember that just because an idea is "new" and different than what you're used to doesn't mean it isn't true. It's science.

ha

Okay, Mr. Science.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264172 - 04/19/14 03:47 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
@Poly
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it wink You're simply being left behind, kiddo.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2264175 - 04/19/14 03:50 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
Why don't you try learning the passage using your brilliant method, and playing it for us?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264180 - 04/19/14 03:54 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 24
YoungNoir Offline
Full Member
YoungNoir  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 24
Cheers for the advice guys, yeah I can play hands seperatly fine at tempo, I'll take all of your advice into account whilst practicing.

All the best

#2264181 - 04/19/14 03:55 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Why don't you try learning the passage using your brilliant method, and playing it for us?

That has nothing to do with anything. Notice how I've already provided to you the latest in conflicting bimanual task research and how to best leverage this research as it applies to the conflicting bimanual task of piano play, and you have done nothing to support your position but stand in ignorance.

Can you not see this? Do you not have the awareness to realize that you have not offered any evidence, and all you're doing is plugging your ears and closing your eyes? Your opinion does not hold up against the research.

A simple example: draw a triangle with your left hand. Now draw a circle with your right hand. Now try to do both tasks at once; it's difficult and the best route to improving this is to practice doing both tasks at once, not by practicing the tasks separately.

Again, all you're doing is acting child-like by plugging your ears and not offering any evidence that is contrary to the latest research in conflicting bimanual tasks.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2264188 - 04/19/14 03:58 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Atrys]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,275
New York City
Originally Posted by Atrys
A simple example: draw a triangle with your left hand. Now draw a circle with your right hand. Now try to do both tasks at once; it's difficult and the best route to improving this is to practice doing both tasks at once, not by practicing the tasks separately.

I agree. But the analogy to the Chopin breaks down because simply performing the tasks simultaneously is not the only object.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2264191 - 04/19/14 04:02 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member
Atrys  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

the analogy to the Chopin breaks down because simply performing the tasks simultaneously is not the only object.

You are correct to say that it is not the only object, but the untrained brain doesn't have the ability to integrate all that entails a piece. The first step is to get the coordination of the bimanual task in place so that prefrontal cortex activity can non-discreetly integrate other components (rhythm, etc.) while the practiced coordination is delegated properly.



"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2264209 - 04/19/14 04:33 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,037
TwoSnowflakes Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TwoSnowflakes  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,037
I will say that I have needed to do both: Sometimes I cannot master a passage unless I put both hands together right away and work it out so that the essential coordination is being learned from the get-go. If I wait, I have to basically relearn the passage WITH the major coordination in both hands, so I tend to just go as slowly as I need to in order to start with both hands together.

However, just the other day I encountered a passage that I could not break through until I finally practiced one hand separately until it was just on autopilot and I could drop the other hand in and focus on nothing but it. It was a right hand running set of chromatic sixteenth notes which moved up and down dissonantly and deliberately independent of the underlying rhythm, and the left hand moves on a strong regular pulse and has the melody, more or less. Could not get them together until the right hand could just go, and the left hand had my attention.

The same thing happened a while back with a Chopin polyrhythm, which is similar to your problem here (but different piece). I just went slower and slower with two hands until I thought "uh, any slower and I'm not playing anything anymore" and it still wasn't working. So I went about it another way: I brought the tempo up to a more workable speed (not full speed, but a speed that had a good pulse) and looping the measures in the left hand, until it didn't require any attention whatsoever to do it.

Then, and only then, with the one hand on absolute autopilot, and nodding strongly at the common beats, I tried dropping the other hand in with the different rhythm, trying only to arrive at the common beats at the same time--which in one place was at the beginning of the measure. Loop, loop, loop. If it didn't work, cut the cord and retreat hand immediately, while continuing to keep the other hand looping, then wait until the next entry point, jump back in and try again. Like trying to jump in on a double dutch jumprope thing. Eventually, my brain caught onto the essential shape of it, and after that it was in there.

Other polyrhythms were solved by mathematically splitting beats, but the ones that don't have a lot of common beats tended to get solved by the looping process.

Something's bound to work for you.


#2264226 - 04/19/14 05:16 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,037
TwoSnowflakes Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TwoSnowflakes  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,037
Got it!

Ok, just loop that second half of the first measure with the 11 over 6 over and over and over until the notes fit. It gets there; it's not fast. Just feel it as one thing. It comes. Then just rinse and repeat the same for the next measure, twice. It's almost entirely a downwards chromatic scale, so it shouldn't be THAT hard to apply the same shape to it once you're feeling it well from the first set.

I haven't yet done it, but I think it'll get there.

It took about 40-50 loops of the first set of 11 over 6 until it fit, running the left hand over and over, until both hands arrived back at the first beat together again, neatly.

I got the shape after I focused on making sure the left hand reached its highest note (F) juuuuust before the right hand climbs back up to the C. They cascade back to the start nicely from there. In the next measure, that same place is somewhere near that g flat in the first half of the 22 over 12, and then in the second half, the right hand hits that F riiiiight before the left hand hits its own F. It's not a science, but it seems to give a nice pace to it all.

As far as I can tell, after that, you're almost home free, polyrhythm-wise since four out of the six times this pieces lapses into those free form phrases, it's the same 11 over 6.

Technically speaking, there's a few 3 over 2, but those are pretty common everywhere and if you're playing this piece I'm guessing you don't consider those hurdles.

Last edited by TwoSnowflakes; 04/19/14 05:34 PM.
#2264248 - 04/19/14 06:05 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,194
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Kuanpiano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,194
Canada
Make sure you line up the downbeats, and remember that 11/6 is almost 12/6, or around 2 notes in the RH per 1 of the left.

Once it's at tempo, you'll be able to make it more flexible by introducing rubato.



Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

#2264279 - 04/19/14 06:35 PM Re: Chopin - Op 9 No 1 help [Re: YoungNoir]  
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 503
noobpianist90 Offline
500 Post Club Member
noobpianist90  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 503
India
I'd like to weigh in about the Hands separate thing:

http://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.II.7


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
3/4 question
by iamanders. 12/16/17 07:14 AM
A trouble spot question
by carolinakeys. 12/16/17 12:45 AM
Happy Birthday in the style of Chopin. WOW!!
by Strat. 12/15/17 11:13 PM
4Front TruePianos - 40% off
by Max_Forte. 12/15/17 06:19 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,293
Posts2,679,557
Members89,273
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0