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#2263270 - 04/17/14 11:08 PM Used Kawai vs New Ritmuller  
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Hi pianoworld forum!

This is my first post here, in fact I just registered myself!

I'm an intermediate/advanced level student (I think :P) - i'm "playing" (trying to play :P ) pathetique sonata, liebestraume n 3 and a few chopin studies - and I, along with my parents, decided that it's time to replace my digital roland piano for a real piano!

I've visited a few stores and tried a few pianos but unfortunatly here where I live (Portugal) the variety of pianos you can find in stores is very limited frown But well between the pianos I've tried the ones that I had most joy playing were a Kawai grand piano model RX5 and a Ritmuller GH170. Both of this pianos were new and costed around the same price- note that the kawai is on sale - (12000-13000 €). I also liked Yamaha U3 upright but this was the only upright piano I liked between the ones that I tried. :P

I am posting here because I want to know your opinion about this two pianos, the Kawai and the Ritmuller, and all suggestions of other options are truly apreciated smile

Oh i also tried a Yamaha grand, I think it was C3, but I didnt like it as much!

Thank you in advance! smile

P.S: Sorry for my English!

Last edited by cromax; 04/20/14 11:31 AM.
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#2263273 - 04/17/14 11:12 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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I'm surprised the RX5 is the same price as the Ritmuller. The RX5 is a substantially bigger piano. Maybe they are selling it cheaply to get rid of it so they can display only the new GX Kawais. I would certainly take the RX5 - especially at that price.

#2263295 - 04/18/14 12:54 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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I would go for the Kawai.

Kawai is a very well regarded manufacturer that has earned world wide respect over a long history of building pianos. They command a strong resale (however no piano really holds value that well compared to when new), they have successfully integrated modern technology into their actions, and they are a pleasure to play.

Of course your opinion of the touch and tone of the piano is very important.

By the way, if you're following these forums you already know there are some Ritmuller dealers on here who try really hard to promote their brand. Obviously they are not an unbiased source.


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#2263297 - 04/18/14 12:55 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Almost forgot: welcome to the forum and happy piano shopping!


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#2263298 - 04/18/14 01:03 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: ando]  
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The Ritmuller is very impressive for its size. The Kawai RX5 offers about an extra foot in length which will probably deliver a richer and more powerful bass sound. The Kawai RX5 has probably been discounted as the RX range has been superseded by the GX series.
Choose the piano which you like better.

Kind regards,

Robert.

#2263303 - 04/18/14 01:15 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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I have owned a Ritmuller GH170 -- its a wonderful piano for its size. But if you are getting an RX5 for the same price, definitely get the RX5. Unless you happen to like the Ritmuller better ...

Last edited by rlinkt; 04/18/14 01:20 AM.
#2263306 - 04/18/14 01:35 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Wow, that's a great deal, especially in Europe where I figured there'd be all these taxes. I paid a little more for my RX5 here in the wild-west (US).

Well, get the one you like better. I hope it would be apparent. I know which one I'd get smile

#2263389 - 04/18/14 07:49 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Thanks for so many answers!

I was really impressed with the Ritmuller, it has a great tone and touch and it is a very beautiful piano! But the Kawai was a beast too, and his bass was indeed more powerful than the Ritmuller's wink
I'm going to the store again to play both pianos and do some more research to be sure which one I like the most! But maybe i'll go for the Kawai smile

Oh, just one more question, I heard somewhere here in the forum that some RX models have a Millenium III system, if i can recall it correctly, and others don't.. What is the difference that this system make and how can I check if the piano is equipped with this system?


#2263461 - 04/18/14 10:40 AM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Millennium III is the name of Kawai's ABS/carbon-fibre composite action. From what I've read, it's been used in their RX pianos since 2004, while models from before 2004 have their previous-generation ABS action. Someone who has directly compared the two actions would be able to comment better than I would, but the newer action is supposed to be somewhat faster and more controllable.


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#2263522 - 04/18/14 12:53 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Kawai is an excellent piano, beautiful action, and lasts a long time. Ritmuller isn't a bad piano but it's not in the same class, and over time I think the Kawai will prove to be a better choice.


#2263532 - 04/18/14 01:33 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Quote
Kawai is an excellent piano, beautiful action, and lasts a long time. Ritmuller isn't a bad piano but it's not in the same class, and over time I think the Kawai will prove to be a better choice.


The truth is that same/similar size pianos by one maker need to be compared to same/similar size piano by another.

The very fact that a 5'7 grand made such good impression against somebody else's much larger 6'6 is remarkable.

At same time it begs the question how Ritmuller would check out if compared by same/similar size.

Alas, this situation does not seem to exist here not allowing for meaningful or conclusive comparisons between these pianos.

Ironically the weight of these pianos is almost same due to the much heavier sand-cast plate of the Ritmuller.

It obviously shows in tone.

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 04/18/14 01:40 PM.

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#2263542 - 04/18/14 01:49 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: Norbert]  
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Originally Posted by Norbert


The truth is that same/similar size pianos by one maker need to be compared to same/similar size piano by another.


Norbert smile


But on many other occasions you have argued that pianos should be compared based on similar selling prices. For example, comparing one of the Chinese-made pianos you carry or have carried to a similarly priced Yamaha or Kawai.

Which is it?


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#2263553 - 04/18/14 02:11 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Hi Cromax,

Since none of us has played those particular pianos, there is no way to give solid advice on which is the more impressive sounding and which action is most responsive. But, there are some general opinions available.

On paper, and with past experience, I would say that the Kawai is the better idea. Unless that particular RX5 has less bass substance and power than typical, I would find it to be a more satisfying experience. The Kawai RX series is a time tested line of instruments. That is also a very, very good price.

I will say, however, that the Ritts are very impressive pianos. But, there is the consideration that they are still somewhat of a newcomer in the battle. It will all come down to what your fingers and ears tell you.

Keep us posted!

Cheers,


Marty in Minnesota

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#2263557 - 04/18/14 02:18 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Quote
But on many other occasions you have argued that pianos should be compared based on similar selling prices. For example, comparing one of the Chinese-made pianos you carry or have carried to a similarly priced Yamaha or Kawai.



This is correct and this indeed is a very unusual situation:
overlooked it... blush

Based on this, the Kawai does indeed appear to be the better deal.

By same token one still needs to advice customers always same: going with the piano that makes most sense to them.

Wishing OP the very best: both very nice pianos!

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 04/18/14 02:19 PM.

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#2263564 - 04/18/14 02:31 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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From what I've heard about Pearl River I'd take that Kawai.
In fact I'd probably take the kawai regardless.


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#2263586 - 04/18/14 03:01 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Wow, so many responses, thank you guys.. I really appreciate your kindness! smile

Originally Posted by mc_2
Millennium III is the name of Kawai's ABS/carbon-fibre composite action. From what I've read, it's been used in their RX pianos since 2004, while models from before 2004 have their previous-generation ABS action. Someone who has directly compared the two actions would be able to comment better than I would, but the newer action is supposed to be somewhat faster and more controllable.


Thank you for explaing it to me smile I think the piano is from 2004 so I'll ask the salesman if he knows it!

After all your comments I'm more and more inclined for the Kawai! Anyway when I have the opportunity to go back to the store and play the pianos I'll update you on the situation smile

I'm really excited about having a grand piano with such quality! smile




#2263587 - 04/18/14 03:01 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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An RX-5 for that price would be a used piano, not a "sale" price. The RX-5 would not be near 30.000€ in Germany but 13.000€ in Portugal. Please find out more information on that instrument.


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#2263595 - 04/18/14 03:14 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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I think we were all working under the assumption that it was new.

Originally Posted by cromax
Both of this pianos were new and costed around the same price- note that the kawai is on sale - (12000-13000 €).


Marty in Minnesota

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#2263605 - 04/18/14 03:29 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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You're right, I should have clarified it better.. The guy said that he sold the piano recently but it wasn't paid until a limit time so they just took the piano back to the store from the guy who bought it but didn't pay his debt. But from what the guy said it wasn't even "used". I think that, along with the GX replacement is the reason for this price.. I'll get more information about it the next time I visit the store!
Anyway I think I'm going to get a technician to check the piano before buying it!

EDIT: So this might count as an used piano. When I said new I meant not used crazy

Last edited by cromax; 04/18/14 03:33 PM.
#2263608 - 04/18/14 03:33 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I think we were all working under the assumption that it was new.

Originally Posted by cromax
Both of this pianos were new and costed around the same price- note that the kawai is on sale - (12000-13000 €).


Yes indeed. This was the whole basis for our comments. If this piano is 10 years old, it can't be considered new. If it is pre-Millenium III it is not worth getting excited about at all. There are plenty of those about. I think this thread has kind of lost its purpose now.

#2263609 - 04/18/14 03:34 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Originally Posted by cromax
Anyway I think I'm going to get a technician to check the piano before buying it!
Also check on the status of the warranty. I hope it works out for you.


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#2263611 - 04/18/14 03:38 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Originally Posted by cromax
You're right, I should have clarified it better.. The guy said that he sold the piano recently but it wasn't paid until a limit time so they just took the piano back to the store from the guy who bought it but didn't pay his debt. But from what the guy said it wasn't even "used". I think that, along with the GX replacement is the reason for this price.. I'll get more information about it the next time I visit the store!
Anyway I think I'm going to get a technician to check the piano before buying it!

EDIT: So this might count as an used piano. When I said new I meant not used crazy


Sorry to be sceptical, but that doesn't sound right at all. Sounds like a made up salesman story to try to sell a piano as new. It's a 10 year old piano! Nobody takes that long to pay off a piano. No dealer waits for payment that long. Lets be clear - this is a used piano. It may be very nice, but any bargaining to try to do should be for a 10 year old used piano, not a new one.

#2263614 - 04/18/14 03:39 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Yeah that was bad from my part should have clarified it better! :s
I think the piano is from 2006 but I'm not sure. The warranty would be has any piano on that store, 5 years warranty.

EDIT: Yes it was kind of a story for selling it but even if the piano was from 2004 he could have selled it later am I right?
But even if that is the case as, an used piano, and I'm sorry for wasting your time considering it as a new, what is your opinion? It seemed to me that the piano was as new and it was a great piano.

Last edited by cromax; 04/18/14 03:49 PM.
#2263622 - 04/18/14 03:50 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Originally Posted by cromax
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by cromax
You're right, I should have clarified it better.. The guy said that he sold the piano recently but it wasn't paid until a limit time so they just took the piano back to the store from the guy who bought it but didn't pay his debt. But from what the guy said it wasn't even "used". I think that, along with the GX replacement is the reason for this price.. I'll get more information about it the next time I visit the store!
Anyway I think I'm going to get a technician to check the piano before buying it!

EDIT: So this might count as an used piano. When I said new I meant not used crazy


Sorry to be sceptical, but that doesn't sound right at all. Sounds like a made up salesman story to try to sell a piano as new. It's a 10 year old piano! Nobody takes that long to pay off a piano. No dealer waits for payment that long. Lets be clear - this is a used piano. It may be very nice, but any bargaining to try to do should be for a 10 year old used piano, not a new one.


Yeah you're right it was kind a bit of a story from the salesman.. But clarify me something new isn't just pianos made in 2014.. If it is that way the Rit isn't new aswell


No, I never said that though, did I? A "new" piano will be made in the last couple of years and will carry the manufacturers warranty. This RX5 will not have Kawai's warranty. It will have the dealers warranty - and those are not the same thing.

You are changing your mind on how old the piano is - First it was new, then it was 2004, now it's 2006. Which one is it? And what made you change your mind? Did you ring the dealer and get new information? If not, I would say this dealer has you dancing to his tune - and by that I mean he has you exactly where he wants you because you are believing every story he sells you. You should view this dealer with scepticism. You may still buy a piano from him, but don't believe everything he tells you. Use your own judgement, not his. I've already read enough here not to trust him.

#2263625 - 04/18/14 03:56 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: ando]  
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by cromax
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by cromax
You're right, I should have clarified it better.. The guy said that he sold the piano recently but it wasn't paid until a limit time so they just took the piano back to the store from the guy who bought it but didn't pay his debt. But from what the guy said it wasn't even "used". I think that, along with the GX replacement is the reason for this price.. I'll get more information about it the next time I visit the store!
Anyway I think I'm going to get a technician to check the piano before buying it!

EDIT: So this might count as an used piano. When I said new I meant not used crazy


Sorry to be sceptical, but that doesn't sound right at all. Sounds like a made up salesman story to try to sell a piano as new. It's a 10 year old piano! Nobody takes that long to pay off a piano. No dealer waits for payment that long. Lets be clear - this is a used piano. It may be very nice, but any bargaining to try to do should be for a 10 year old used piano, not a new one.


Yeah you're right it was kind a bit of a story from the salesman.. But clarify me something new isn't just pianos made in 2014.. If it is that way the Rit isn't new aswell


No, I never said that though, did I? A "new" piano will be made in the last couple of years and will carry the manufacturers warranty. This RX5 will not have Kawai's warranty. It will have the dealers warranty - and those are not the same thing.

You are changing your mind on how old the piano is - First it was new, then it was 2004, now it's 2006. Which one is it? And what made you change your mind? Did you ring the dealer and get new information? If not, I would say this dealer has you dancing to his tune - and by that I mean he has you exactly where he wants you because you are believing every story he sells you. You should view this dealer with scepticism. You may still buy a piano from him, but don't believe everything he tells you. Use your own judgement, not his. I've already read enough here not to trust him.


Yes you're right that's why I deleted that post and changed the other :P I wasnt aware of the existence of a manufacturer warranty

I'm not changing my mind about the year.. I think it was 2006, but I'm not sure as I said.. And then I was supposing if it was in fact from 2004 like "worst scenario case" smile
Yes you're right I should be more critic about it

But even after this misunderstanding caused by my lack of criticism/info, would it still be a better deal than the Ritmuller?

Last edited by cromax; 04/18/14 03:58 PM.
#2263627 - 04/18/14 03:57 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Originally Posted by cromax

EDIT: Yes it was kind of a story for selling it but even if the piano was from 2004 he could have selled it later am I right?


No. It's a used piano. No dealer keeps a piano in their showroom for 10 years. It's been taken home and played by somebody. It might be in nice condition and played very little, but it's NOT a new piano under any definition. Case closed.

Quote
But even if that is the case as, an used piano, and I'm sorry for wasting your time considering it as a new, what is your opinion? It seemed to me that the piano was as new and it was a great piano.


It's hard to say. It is probably still the nicer piano of the two, but because it's not new, it's hard to say what the condition of it is. It might need work, it might be fine - it carries the usual dangers of buying a used piano. You need to get a tech in to assess how much wear it has.


#2263629 - 04/18/14 04:00 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: ando]  
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by cromax

EDIT: Yes it was kind of a story for selling it but even if the piano was from 2004 he could have selled it later am I right?


No. It's a used piano. No dealer keeps a piano in their showroom for 10 years. It's been taken home and played by somebody. It might be in nice condition and played very little, but it's NOT a new piano under any definition. Case closed.

Quote
But even if that is the case as, an used piano, and I'm sorry for wasting your time considering it as a new, what is your opinion? It seemed to me that the piano was as new and it was a great piano.


It's hard to say. It is probably still the nicer piano of the two, but because it's not new, it's hard to say what the condition of it is. It might need work, it might be fine - it carries the usual dangers of buying a used piano. You need to get a tech in to assess how much wear it has.



Thank you ando for your special information and dedication on your responses smile

Yeah that might be the right thing to do get a tech to check it out!

#2263634 - 04/18/14 04:05 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by cromax
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by cromax

EDIT: Yes it was kind of a story for selling it but even if the piano was from 2004 he could have selled it later am I right?


No. It's a used piano. No dealer keeps a piano in their showroom for 10 years. It's been taken home and played by somebody. It might be in nice condition and played very little, but it's NOT a new piano under any definition. Case closed.

Quote
But even if that is the case as, an used piano, and I'm sorry for wasting your time considering it as a new, what is your opinion? It seemed to me that the piano was as new and it was a great piano.


It's hard to say. It is probably still the nicer piano of the two, but because it's not new, it's hard to say what the condition of it is. It might need work, it might be fine - it carries the usual dangers of buying a used piano. You need to get a tech in to assess how much wear it has.



Thank you ando for your special information and dedication on your responses smile

Yeah that might be the right thing to do get a tech to check it out!


You're welcome. I wish you luck in your purchase.

#2263646 - 04/18/14 04:34 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
One thing that would help is if you got the serial number of the piano and post it here. That way we can find out exactly when it was built.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2263648 - 04/18/14 04:37 PM Re: Kawai vs Ritmuller [Re: cromax]  
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,113
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
wimpiano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,113
The Netherlands
You might want to do that for both instruments.. The impression I get from this dealer is not a very good/trustworthy one..
I would prefer an instrument with factory warranty because in this particular case it might be worth 100% more then a dealer warranty. Sorry for being so negative. Hope you get a good instrument.


Schimmel 116 S
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