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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso


...I think that partials do not need to be predicted, but heard and put in the right place.
.


+1


Bob W.
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Good points Mark. If my understanding of transposing instruments is correct, a song written in Concert "E Major" would place a trumpet player in the key of F# and a baritone player in C# - lots of sharps, lots of unhappy instrumentalists. The same song written in Concert "Eb" would place the trumpet in "F" and the baritone in "C". This fact alone would account for the composers of Broadway musicals favoring the flat keys - in order to keep the most musicians comfortable most of the time.

Additionally, it has always been a common practice in jazz and popular music to transpose songs to whatever key is most comfortable for the singer - a fact which songwriters are very well aware of.

Don't misunderstand me - if someone prefers a song to be played in UT, in a particular key, because of "tone color" I have no problem with that. What I do find bothersome is personal preference, speculation and wishful thinking being used to "prove" that Gershwin, or any other composer from "The American Songbook" era, "intended" certain keys because of their "color". Such arguments only serve to undermine the credibility of those who promote UT as being superior to ET.


Gerry Johnston
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Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston
Good points Mark. If my understanding of transposing instruments is correct, a song written in Concert "E Major" would place a trumpet player in the key of F# and a baritone player in C# - lots of sharps, lots of unhappy instrumentalists. The same song written in Concert "Eb" would place the trumpet in "F" and the baritone in "C". This fact alone would account for the composers of Broadway musicals favoring the flat keys - in order to keep the most musicians comfortable most of the time.

Additionally, it has always been a common practice in jazz and popular music to transpose songs to whatever key is most comfortable for the singer - a fact which songwriters are very well aware of.

Don't misunderstand me - if someone prefers a song to be played in UT, in a particular key, because of "tone color" I have no problem with that. What I do find bothersome is personal preference, speculation and wishful thinking being used to "prove" that Gershwin, or any other composer from "The American Songbook" era, "intended" certain keys because of their "color". Such arguments only serve to undermine the credibility of those who promote UT as being superior to ET.


Unless I am mistaken, most temperaments from the Renaissance onward, are based on C as the most 'pure' or 'just' key. The 'colour' or sound of the keys became progressively more 'active' as one progressed around the circle of fifths in either direction. Pieces written in this period of several hundred years through the early part of the 19th century were limited to keys closely related to C. People and composers heard this 'colour' difference and used it for effect. Schubart (not Schubert) wrote about the emotional differences among the different keys, as a result of being immersed in that sound. The paper was so popular at the time (He also wrote the words to the "Trout' which Schubert set to music) that many people and composers jumped on the 'colour' bandwagon.

As the 19th century progressed and temperaments moved ever closer to the idealized concept of ET, these same type of people and composers insensibly (meaning slowly and without being aware of the change) lost their attachment to the 'colour' of the keys. Nevertheless, some composers are known to have continued to write using key colours (Prokofiev being the most obvious example) in spite of the lack of any appreciable difference in the resulting sound.

Today, it makes absolute sense that composers would write in keys that are more 'playable' for the instrumentalist.

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Gerry,

Please keep in mind that "The American Songbook" is nothing more than a reference to compositions drawn from various compositions of American musical theater (Broadway). There is no definitive publication of that name and many different composers could be represented. The reference implies that they are performed outside of their original context.

In a performance of the "Gershwin Songbook" there is no requirement that Summertime would necessarily be performed in the same key as it is in a performance of Porgy & Bess. Hopefully, the singer will perform it with the "key color" as was originally intended.


Marty in Minnesota

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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Gerry,

Please keep in mind that "The American Songbook" is nothing more than a reference to compositions drawn from various compositions of American musical theater (Broadway). There is no definitive publication of that name and many different composers could be represented. The reference implies that they are performed outside of their original context.

In a performance of the "Gershwin Songbook" there is no requirement that Summertime would necessarily be performed in the same key as it is in a performance of Porgy & Bess. Hopefully, the singer will perform it with the "key color" as was originally intended.


Understood and agreed. I used the reference only because, earlier in this discussion, Bill Bremmer made the claim that this group of songwriters did indeed use specific keys because of the "color". This is pure speculation with nothing more than personal preference for UT to support the claim.


Gerry Johnston
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
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