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I'm working on K310 1st mvt, and wondering what fingering I should use for LH m. 42-43. The measures in question are the 2nd and 3rd measure below: ![[Linked Image]](http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae170/erin399/Mozartk310_zps29cd5c24.png) At first I was doing 4-1-3-2-4-1-3-2, etc., but was wondering if there's another option that you've used and prefer over this.
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Those are the measures, aren't they  ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/full/2558.jpg)
Heather Reichgott, piano
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I would also experiment with doing 3-1 all the way down.
If it were me I'd play with both, but I can imagine going with the 3-1 solution.
-Jason
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4132 is the only consistently comfortable fingering I've found for those passages.
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I'm with 4132 also. Morodiene, I wonder if maybe the main reason it's not comfortable for you is how you're dividing it up, in both your mind and your hand. Are you thinking of it as being divided according to the beat? i.e. 4132 4132 etc.? Yes, that's the music. But it's not the physicality. The physicality is: 4 1324 1324 etc. That doesn't mean you accent the thumbs, which is what it might look like, since '1' begins each group. And indeed that's what would happen with this mental and physical grouping, if we're not careful. But the thing is, if you view it the "metric" way, i.e. the first way, then what you're probably doing physically is, scrunching your hand between the 1st and 2nd notes of each group, in order to connect 4 and 1. Don't connect 4 and 1.OK, I just lied.  Sure you connect 4 and 1. But don't be fanatic about connecting them in the usual kind of way, i.e. by bringing the two fingers close to each other; do a lot of it by moving the hand, as opposed to scrunching the fingers together -- which is awkward, tension-inducing, and I think for most people, therefore ultimately unmusical. And above all, think of it as 4 1324 1324, not 4132 4132. My old teacher Seymour Bernstein has an adage for passages like this: "Rhythm is the enemy of technique." Chopin especially is full of things like this, where the best way to approach the technique of a passage is by dividing the groups in a way that goes against how they look on the page. (So.....what do you think?)
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Just to add more to the chorus for 4132, I guess I worked it out the same way: ![[Linked Image]](https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7237/13907410185_7e18762888.jpg) Now, to be fair, I did NOT finish this movement before I mercifully put it aside to work on a Haydn sonata until I could come back to it, but I'm fairly certain the barrier was not the fingering, it was the pianist.
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I'm with 4132 also. Morodiene, I wonder if maybe the main reason it's not comfortable for you is how you're dividing it up, in both your mind and your hand. Are you thinking of it as being divided according to the beat? i.e. 4132 4132 etc.? Yes, that's the music. But it's not the physicality. The physicality is: 4 1324 1324 etc. That doesn't mean you accent the thumbs, which is what it might look like, since '1' begins each group. And indeed that's what would happen with this mental and physical grouping, if we're not careful. But the thing is, if you view it the "metric" way, i.e. the first way, then what you're probably doing physically is, scrunching your hand between the 1st and 2nd notes of each group, in order to connect 4 and 1. Don't connect 4 and 1.OK, I just lied. Sure you connect 4 and 1. But don't be fanatic about connecting them in the usual kind of way, i.e. by bringing the two fingers close to each other; do a lot of it by moving the hand, as opposed to scrunching the fingers together -- which is awkward, tension-inducing, and I think for most people, therefore ultimately unmusical. And above all, think of it as 4 1324 1324, not 4132 4132. My old teacher Seymour Bernstein has an adage for passages like this: "Rhythm is the enemy of technique." Chopin especially is full of things like this, where the best way to approach the technique of a passage is by dividing the groups in a way that goes against how they look on the page. (So.....what do you think?) Outstanding addition. Thank you so much for posting that, Mark. As many times as I comment on this kind of thing, I actually never would have thought of it hear. But now that I do think about it, you couldn't be more rite.  (And yes, a very subtle intention in the misspellings, but deliberate nonetheless. )
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I would also experiment with doing 3-1 all the way down. That or how about 2-1 all the way?
-- J.S. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/7588.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/7589.jpg) Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690
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I would also experiment with doing 3-1 all the way down. That's what I do, but don't tell my students that! I make my students do 4-1-3-2. There are also a couple of other icky passages in this movement. The L.H. of the development section is murderous.
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I would also experiment with doing 3-1 all the way down. That's what I do, but don't tell my students that! I make my students do 4-1-3-2. Why would you make your students do something you don't do yourself?
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Polyphonist
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I would also experiment with doing 3-1 all the way down. That's what I do, but don't tell my students that! I make my students do 4-1-3-2. Why would you make your students do something you don't do yourself? There's this thing called muscle memory. I learned the piece way back in high school with a very VERY bad teacher (who is still teaching!), but the fingering is stuck in me. In addition to this Mozart, half of my Bach Inventions have lousy fingering. I just don't have the time nor the desire to go back and fix these bad habits. And that's why I insist on having my students use the best fingering possible.
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I would also experiment with doing 3-1 all the way down. That's what I do, but don't tell my students that! I make my students do 4-1-3-2.... Since nobody's said this yet about the "3-1" thing, and somebody's got to say it.... "3-1-3-1" vs. "4-1-3-2" is far from just a technical question. It's more a musical question. Playing "3-1 all the way down" almost inevitably results in a different kind of playing, more of an "every-note", "pointilist" thing; "4-1-3-2" results in a more lyrical thing. So, I think you make a mistake if you decide to play "3-1 all the way down" unless it's part of a decision that you want more of an "every-note" effect than a quasi-lyrical effect. In fact, I think the better way to put it is, you start with how you want it to sound, and then make sure that the fingering you choose suits it. A corollary of this (I think corollary is the right word) would be that the most skilled musician/pianists would be capable of doing it either way, perhaps on the fly, according to what interpretation they wish to give it in that instance. Or, how about this, if we really want to get fancy: Start with 4-1-3-2, then at some point toward the bottom, switch to 3-1-3-1 for more brilliance (and clarity, which is harder to get down there on our nowadays pianos). I mean, I'd never attempt anything like that. I'm talking about people who can do more than I can. I've always thought of it more 'lyrically' (relatively speaking), and so I'd never think of even trying "3-1 all the way down."
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I haven't played this work for decades, but my old score showed that I used 4-1-3-2. I don't think 3-1 all the way down was ever on the cards from my teacher then. But now that I don't have a teacher, I might just have a go at re-learning it - with 3-1 all the way.....
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I'm with 4132 also.
...
the best way to approach the technique of a passage is by dividing the groups in a way that goes against how they look on the page.
(So.....what do you think?)  Rotation helps too. Rotation works with either 4132 or 3131. The advantage of 4132 over 3131 is aim and speed in my experience. Easier to aim a smaller number of 4-note groups than a larger number of 2-note groups. Basically for all the reasons Mark_C said. (Of course, I think Morodiene already knows all that.) PS It is nice having this kind of discussion on the forum again.
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on:
Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée
William Grant Still - Three Visions
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Just woke up, I guess you guys are all late posters! I konk out at about 10 pm lol. Thanks for the great advice everyone. I did imagine the 3-1 all the way down, but that seemed to "plodding." I even considered a crazy 2-1-3-2-4-3-5-1 thing, but I knew at a higher speed that 3rd on the 2-1 would get me, and I try to avoid playing 4 and 5 so close together on a fast passage if ever possible. So 4-3-2-1 it is! (or rather, 4 3214). I agree that maybe grouping it differently will help with the choppy feeling I was hearing. I'm in the very beginning stages of this piece, so I wanted to get good fingering from the start. Now the tricky part will be to make that in the background while bringing out the RH melody. One of many fish to fry in this piece. I have wanted to play this since grad school, and I finally feel capable. We'll see about that
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A corollary of this (I think corollary is the right word) would be that the most skilled musician/pianists would be capable of doing it either way, perhaps on the fly, according to what interpretation they wish to give it in that instance. That's what I do, but usually I wouldn't even be aware of what fingering I'm using. (There's also a third fingering, by the way.)
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Polyphonist
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I will admit: I might feel a little silly with 1313... (Otherwise known as "13/99": think repeated decimals.)
But I think we should try lots of fingerings, not just the ones that seem proper. My teacher has opened up my eyes to "ridiculous", but really wonderful fingerings, e.g. a "33" in a fast RH passage of Chopin's first scherzo. Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas are filled with these kinds of ridiculous, brilliant fingerings. Not that he'd ever do 1313 here in a million years.
-J
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....My teacher has opened up my eyes to "ridiculous", but really wonderful fingerings, e.g. a "33" in a fast RH passage of Chopin's first scherzo.... Wherever that is (and I can't even guess!), I think it's a sure bet that this was along the lines of what I said in an earlier post: It was because this fingering better enabled a particular musical goal, in line with a particular interpretation -- not simply because it was technically preferable.
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Weird thing is, the 1-3 is super easy. I just tried it and I don't have to slow down at all and I can then focus more on what I'm doing in the RH. I'll see how far this gets me, and if need be I'll work the other fingering.
Another question: at m. 40, the RH is playing a Quarter note on treble C and the LH then comes in a 16th note later and plays the same C and then moves down the scale. I'm having difficulty playing the C with the RH, then have the LH come in then move off while still holding down the C for the full quarter note value. I was thinking of cheating and just playing the C twice with the RH (16th-dotted 8th) and not at all with the LH.
Any other ideas?
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at m. 40, the RH is playing a Quarter note on treble C and the LH then comes in a 16th note later and plays the same C and then moves down the scale. I'm having difficulty playing the C with the RH, then have the LH come in then move off while still holding down the C for the full quarter note value. I was thinking of cheating and just playing the C twice with the RH (16th-dotted 8th) and not at all with the LH.
Any other ideas? You will be going so fast that it will not matter in the least, especially if you tap the pedal.
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on:
Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée
William Grant Still - Three Visions
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