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Hello all,

I'm wondering if someone might have advice for me. I'm a conservatory-trained pianist, and ever since I practiced the Brahms 51 exercises, rather intensively, daily, during my last two years at the conservatory (which at the outset improved my technique by leaps and strides), I have suffered from chronic/intermittent fatigue in my fingers, often seemingly independent of how much practicing I have been doing. There is no pain and no ostensible injury; at the time I went to a famous doctor who specializes in musicians' problems and he didn't find anything wrong. When this fatigue is present, it completely sabotages my technique and I can hardly play, or play very poorly (this problem ruined my exams at the conservatory). My fingers are simply very tired, and my dexterity is accordingly drastically reduced.

I have never met another pianist who had this problem of fingers getting tired so readily and then being practically unable to play. There are many moments and even periods when I am able to play normally, but this recurrent fatigue makes it extremely difficult to attain any kind of stable level in my playing.

(My technique is otherwise all right in terms of playing without tension, or without excessive tension)

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do to heal this problem?

I have very recently expermented with doing various improvised slow and gradual stretches of my fingers, hands, and wrists, and this is the very first thing I have ever tried that has helped. Are there stretches specifically for pianists that anyone knows of and that they can recommend?

I would be very grateful for anyhelp.

Many thanks in advance,
adanepst

Sometimes my fingers get tired, and I lift heavy things. It drastically decreases my recovery time. Just getting your hands muscles doing something different.

Get yourself a gym membership and lift some weights with your hands. Like curls, or pullups or bench press, whatever involves carrying a lot with your hands.

There's a lot of isometric contractions going on when you play the piano, it feels good to get your hands doing full contractions for a change.

The sensation of tired fingers is almost certainly caused by depletion of fluids; there are no muscles in the fingers.

Does it happen after practicing for some hours, or right away?

Thank you for your replies. An interesting suggestion about doing some other kind of physical activity with my hands. I do pushups every day, but I might consider a more extended workout involving my arms and hands.

Atrys: it generally happens after practicing for some hours, but if I have practiced for some hours the previous day, the tiredness can be there the following day at the very beginning of my practicing.

I am interested: could you explain to me something about depletion of fluids?

If you've been practicing for too long your playing muscles will fatigue and begin to deplete their fluids. If not enough time is given to them to recover, this sensation won't go away.

There's also the possibility that you may be using playing muscles in such a way that isn't healthy for human physiology (our old friend tension).

Do your fingers also feel cold when they get tired? What exactly does the sensation feel like, and exactly where do you feel it?

This might be something to investigate with your GP.

Thank you, Atrys, for your detailed reponse. (And, by the way, for the wonderful Emerson quote in your signature)

My fingers do not feel cold when they get tired; the sensation is similar to other kinds of muscle fatigue after exertion - a general feeling of tiredness in the muscles (anatomically speaking, I don't know if in this case it is muscles, or tendons, or ligaments...), and the fingers being able to do much less at the piano as a result: decreased dexterity and agility.

Perhaps there is a way to speed up recovery time of the muscles fatigued and depleted of their fluids?

The important thing is gripping with your hands, so that's why I suggested the specific exercises I did.

I'm not claiming this to be the cause, but drink lots and lots and lots of water. Refrain from using the muscles too. The likelihood that this is caused by unrecovered muscles is pretty low unless you play for a very long time every day. Even then, the probability is little-to-none, as your muscles will have built up and adapted to the demand long ago.


There are some members here with far better education than me on this stuff; hopefully they chime in later. If this isn't caused by unrecovered muscles, it may be unhealthy proportional use of playing muscles that drains your fluid compartments apart from blood (since your fingers stay warm). I'd visit your GP or a specialist and bring it up.

If you stop playing for a couple of days, how long until it's back?

Thank you again for your replies! I will consider gymnastic or weight exercises that involve some gripping.

And I will keep this in mind about drinking a lot of water.

If I don't play for a couple of days, usually the fatigue is gone.

If you have gotten a thorough medical examination of the problem (and it sounds as if you did), I would strongly suggest getting a consultation from a specialist in ergonomic piano technique. They may be able to identify a possible cause in what you are doing at the keyboard.

The best I know of are the teachers of Taubman technique at the Golandsky Institute (www.golandskyinstitute.org)

Don't over-drink - fatigue in your fingers isn't due to dehydration: the advice Atrys gave you is plain wrong. You can get seriously ill from excessive drinking due to hyponatremia, so don't do it. Be guided by thirst and the color of your urine as to the state of your hydration. (If it's darker than pale yellow, you might need a drink - but not alcohol ).


It's the build-up of lactic acid in your muscles that's usually the cause of acute fatigue (which often manifests as a burning sensation, familiar to most athletes). The muscle glycogen stores get used during anaerobic metabolism when you work hard enough to push past the aerobic system, and lactate is a by-product, which needs clearing.

However, fatigue or pain that persists for the next day or two isn't due to lactate (which is cleared quickly) - it's due to delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) which is from muscle damage. Playing the piano hard enough (especially with repetitive movements, as in practising the same difficult exercise incessantly) for long enough can cause it.

Good suggestions above. If they don't work, I'd see a neurologist.

It's not lactic acid that's the problem, this would be very obvious to the OP. It's also not the infamous DOMS, as this too would be very obvious.

bennevis doesn't seem to understand fluid depletion very well. Let's also remind him that there are no muscles in the fingers. His input here is too naive to be taken seriously. One ought to stay away from the uninformed things he says (he still believes that "strong fingers" are the key to scales, which is nonsense).

Drink lots and lots of water OP, but this is certainly something to bring to a professional.

Atrys, you need to realize when your advice is simply stupid and when your advice is dangerous.

You give a lot of the former, but when you start on the latter, I feel obliged to step in.

Have you never heard of the saying: "When you are in a hole, STOP digging"?

You've dug yourself several holes in almost as many posts, but instead of admitting your mistakes, keep attempting to justify them. (Others have shown you up.) It's time you crawled back into one of them.

The OP didn't say what part of his fingers are getting tired; if I had to guess, I would say it's probably the muscles in his hand around the first knuckle, because there are muscles there

Hello all,

and thanks again for your ideas and suggestions.

bennevis and atrys - I appreciate each of your ideas; even if they might seem to contradict each other, for me this is not a problem. I think truth is very big and inclusive, permits seeming oppositions, and includes them! So all ideas are welcome.

bennevis: I am interested to learn of DOMS for the first time. I just did some reading about this on the internet. Usually "soreness" is spoken of, but sometimes also of "stiffness." I don't have soreness, but this still might be the same, or a related, phenomenon.

phantomFive: the feeling of fatigue is generalized; I simply notice that the whole mechanism is tired and that my dexterity is greatly reduced, I can't play things I can usually play, or not as well.

I'm looking forward to looking into all the suggestions that have been offered here. Thanks again.

As I'm a runner and climber, I've had lots of personal experience of DOMs - not to mention 'hitting the wall' in the latter stages of marathons and long exhausting climbs (when your glycogen stores run out). As for lactate, it's something that all athletes get used to, and train for, to increase tolerance to it.

My experience of DOMS is of ache coupled with stiffness. Frequently more of the latter, and often the ache itself is hardly noticeable. It isn't localized, so sometimes it may not be evident how it came about, apart from the fact that it appears a while later.

Bennevis, in order for someone to experience severe or possibly even lethal hyponatremia due to excess water intake, one would have to drink vast amounts of water, and doing so by accident is very, very rare. A lethal amount of water per day for a fully grown person, is about 10-15 litres. Drinking more than 4 litres of water per hour is definitely lethal, but drinking so much occurs only during stupid acts such as water drinking contests.

Highly trained medical professionals have difficulty diagnosing many orthopedic conditions after running tests in person. Keep that in mind any time a person gives you health advice over the internet with certainty.

Svenno has already refuted your silly claim. You really don't have much to offer the OP (per the usual). Your advice is rarely relevant and is usually ill-informed as well as plainly untrue. *yawn*


I agree that it may be possible that OP is fatiguing his interossei muscles, but the probability is low considering his level of experience.


Absolutely. Despite what us strangers can offer you (OP), it's no replacement for seeking professional help.