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Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: David Boyce] #2254258
03/30/14 12:19 PM
03/30/14 12:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
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Jbyron Offline
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
The composer Alkan was killed by a falling bookcase, if that helps at all.......


What was a composer doing hanging around a bookcase?


Tuner-Technician


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Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2254342
03/30/14 03:30 PM
03/30/14 03:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
If the feet where not installed and I was called for tuning, I would a look on how they are fixed, then depending of the amount of work, install them or propose a second date.
Those things are not as broken strings, where the customer may have forget or is not aware strings are missing.
I accept often to be sold the customer problem, depending how his posture is about it.

Last edited by Olek; 03/30/14 03:31 PM.

Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: Jbyron] #2254353
03/30/14 03:49 PM
03/30/14 03:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 208
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Originally Posted by Jbyron
Originally Posted by David Boyce
The composer Alkan was killed by a falling bookcase, if that helps at all.......


What was a composer doing hanging around a bookcase?


To get to the other side?

I'm sorry... I had to say it.

Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2254428
03/30/14 06:31 PM
03/30/14 06:31 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,634
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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Well, seems the bookcase story isnt accurate. From Wikipedia:

Quote
For many years it was believed that Alkan met his death when a bookcase toppled over and fell on him as he reached for a volume of the Talmud from a high shelf. This tale, which was circulated by the pianist Isidor Philipp,[75] is dismissed by Hugh Macdonald, who reports the discovery of a contemporary letter by one of his pupils explaining that Alkan had been found prostrate in his kitchen, under a porte-parapluie (a heavy coat/umbrella rack), after his concierge heard his moaning. He had possibly fainted, bringing it down on himself while grabbing out for support. He was reportedly carried to his bedroom and died later that evening.[76] The story of the bookcase may have its roots in a legend told of Aryeh Leib ben Asher, rabbi of Metz, the town from which Alkan's family originated


Still, if you buy Ikea bookscases, make sure you do actually use the little top fixing brackets they supply!

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Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: David Boyce] #2254441
03/30/14 07:34 PM
03/30/14 07:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,597
Melbourne, Australia
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ando Online content
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by David Boyce


Still, if you buy Ikea bookscases, make sure you do actually use the little top fixing brackets they supply!


And if you buy Ikea, you should also start your savings plan right away for the bookcase that will replace it in 3 years when the shelves are sagging... wink

Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2254786
03/31/14 10:12 AM
03/31/14 10:12 AM
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rXd Offline
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O. K. I'll have another go at explaining this.

Any piano with four castors mostly, for all practical purposes, only sits on three of them. The two at the back where most of the weight is and the rest of the weight is divided, usually unequally between the front legs on this kind of piano.
An experienced tuner will have come across the front castor with no weight on it that rattles. A slightly more experienced tuner will have come across a piano that gets moved and the state of tuning will depend on how level the floor is. Level floors are very rare.

All this is particularly true of small pianos with front legs attached to the front of the keybed and contacting the floor, as seems to be the case with this piano.

Consequently, putting the legs back on may cause the weight distribution between the floor contact points to be changed and causing the frame to be twisted differently enough to alter the tuning.

Anyone can prove this for themselves on this type of piano by playing the interval of a fifth or a third spanning the bass/tenor break and putting a knee under one end or other of the keyboard and lifting it while listening to the interval size change. I did just that on a 40" upright with no legs attached to the keybed and the change was quite large. Also on a fifty inch upright with front legs attached to toeblocks. The effect was much less but still there.

I only mention it because the OP, by his own admittance is relatively inexperienced and not likely to know about this phenomenon. It would be wise to at least check the condition of the tuning, particularly spanning the lowest break after the legs are on.

This subject has been mentioned on these pages before.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2254880
03/31/14 02:45 PM
03/31/14 02:45 PM
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Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
On old traditionally build pianos, with real massive wood making a strong structure this does not really happen.

But on modern cases, even for some first grade brands, changing the sitting from 4 to 3 casters change the key dip clearly, and even with a wooden structure behind the soundboard, the tuning may move a little.

On the small modern pianos that uses the iron plate as a support for the case and the keyboard, any change in location make the plate twist.

I doubt there is much load on those thin "floating" legs, but if any the keyboard will change may be a little, and only if the keyboard is really supported by those legs. they are not intended to do so, in my opinion, more for a security and design.




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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: Jbyron] #2254923
03/31/14 03:56 PM
03/31/14 03:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 4
FL
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iChristina Offline
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Originally Posted by Jbyron
I'd put them on so it doesn't tip over and explode.



lol

Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: rXd] #2255120
03/31/14 11:49 PM
03/31/14 11:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,738
Kuwait
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Kuwait
Thank you for that. It is one of those things that is so obvious when explained but I would never have thought of on my own! Of course a similar effect will not occur on a grand because having only 3 casters it is always firmly in contact with the floor!

So if one has a caster with no load is it just a case of inserting shims until the load is equally distributed?

Originally Posted by rxd
O. K. I'll have another go at explaining this.

Any piano with four castors mostly, for all practical purposes, only sits on three of them. The two at the back where most of the weight is and the rest of the weight is divided, usually unequally between the front legs on this kind of piano.
An experienced tuner will have come across the front castor with no weight on it that rattles. A slightly more experienced tuner will have come across a piano that gets moved and the state of tuning will depend on how level the floor is. Level floors are very rare.

All this is particularly true of small pianos with front legs attached to the front of the keybed and contacting the floor, as seems to be the case with this piano.

Consequently, putting the legs back on may cause the weight distribution between the floor contact points to be changed and causing the frame to be twisted differently enough to alter the tuning.

Anyone can prove this for themselves on this type of piano by playing the interval of a fifth or a third spanning the bass/tenor break and putting a knee under one end or other of the keyboard and lifting it while listening to the interval size change. I did just that on a 40" upright with no legs attached to the keybed and the change was quite large. Also on a fifty inch upright with front legs attached to toeblocks. The effect was much less but still there.

I only mention it because the OP, by his own admittance is relatively inexperienced and not likely to know about this phenomenon. It would be wise to at least check the condition of the tuning, particularly spanning the lowest break after the legs are on.

This subject has been mentioned on these pages before.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2257920
04/06/14 10:48 PM
04/06/14 10:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,738
Kuwait
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Posts: 3,738
Kuwait
And to reply to my own reply- my Kawai arrived and, sure enough, one caster was hanging in the air. I have some small grand piano shapes I cut out of acrylic sheet for my 1:20 plan of my music room. I tapped one under the dangling caster and, now, everything seems fine. Your advice could not have come at a better time.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2261564
04/14/14 11:49 AM
04/14/14 11:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 50
Boston
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Greg the Piano Tuner Offline
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Boston
I'd put them back on as soon as possible. If the piano ever fell over, you'd lose your house, your car, and every nickel you have.

Last edited by Greg the Piano Tuner; 04/14/14 11:50 AM.
Re: Okay to leave front legs off of Knight piano? [Re: kimw] #2261567
04/14/14 11:55 AM
04/14/14 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,900
Oakland
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Oakland
If the movers did not replace the legs, it is their negligence, nobody else's.

One question that has not been asked is whether kimw feels comfortable replacing the legs. If not, someone else should do it. Not knowing how they are attached, I could not give advice. All the Knights I have seen have been studio uprights, with the legs going between the keybed and toes that extend from the bottom of the piano. It sounds like this is something different.


Semipro Tech
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