Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
How It All Really Began
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
97 registered members (Adam., akc42, Alexander Borro, abarax, 25 invisible), 1,319 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Non Harmonic Tone #2260775
04/12/14 06:02 PM
04/12/14 06:02 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA

MacDowell: To the Sea, Op. 55, No. 1

I am very puzzled:
What is the name of the circled non-harmonic tone in measure 6?

Click for Picture Here



Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260776
04/12/14 06:03 PM
04/12/14 06:03 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Thank you for helping!


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260779
04/12/14 06:03 PM
04/12/14 06:03 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260780
04/12/14 06:05 PM
04/12/14 06:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,315
New York City
P
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,315
New York City
What do you mean the name? It's an accented passing tone.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260781
04/12/14 06:06 PM
04/12/14 06:06 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
I am thinking passing tone too, but my student's theory test was marked wrong with "passing tone" as answer.

Maybe is something else that I am not enlighten of?

Last edited by ezpiano.org; 04/12/14 06:07 PM.

Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260803
04/12/14 06:55 PM
04/12/14 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
I don't see anything.

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260835
04/12/14 08:42 PM
04/12/14 08:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,564
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,564
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
I am thinking passing tone too, but my student's theory test was marked wrong with "passing tone" as answer.

Maybe is something else that I am not enlighten of?

Your student is correct. The answer key contains a different answer.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260837
04/12/14 08:50 PM
04/12/14 08:50 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
What is the answer on the answer key?

Thanks!


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260838
04/12/14 08:51 PM
04/12/14 08:51 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Hi KeyString, can you try one more time for the link above?

Or, here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxdJp3V5iKZqRlZKbGgtbkhCQzA/edit?usp=sharing


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: AZNpiano] #2260839
04/12/14 08:59 PM
04/12/14 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,077
Virginia, USA
T
TimR Offline
4000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,077
Virginia, USA
When I looked at it I said passing tone.

When I played it and listened I thought suspension.

But it doesn't really resolve, does it?



gotta go practice
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260855
04/12/14 10:06 PM
04/12/14 10:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,362
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,362
Boynton Beach, FL
It's a 2-1 suspension, but it doesn't sound like it with the B-flat minor chord it's resolving to, so it's almost like a deceptive cadence. Of course, this is kicking around a lot of cobwebs, so I could just be spouting nonsense. smile


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260885
04/13/14 12:17 AM
04/13/14 12:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,564
Orange County, CA
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,564
Orange County, CA
It's not a suspension. There would need to be a tie from the previous chord, or at least the same note from the previous chord being replayed on the current chord, followed by a stepwise descent.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260887
04/13/14 12:24 AM
04/13/14 12:24 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,526
UK
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,526
UK
As far I can tell it's an "accented passing note", not "just a passing note". It's on a strong beat and perhaps this is why "passing note" was crossed out as wrong.

It's the kind of thing we see in a lot of Bach Chorals, btw...

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260909
04/13/14 03:31 AM
04/13/14 03:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
The classical textbook meaning of suspension I know wants to have the tie, but there is a suspended kind of feel to it. What I'm hearing is an Fm in beat 1, and when we get to that Eb, it sounds like the Eb of Fm7 coming so late, that the Fm isn't there anymore. And of course Fm7 moves to Bbm, which we have next. If that Eb had come a tad earlier, we would actually have a suspension that we could tie over; even the stepwise descent would be there (Eb to Db). There is also an appoggiatura feel to it - this heavy lean into the Eb which then resolves to the Db which is part of the Bbm chord.

I would love to know what this is from, and where it's located in the music, because it feels like it's in the middle of something. It sounds quite lovely.

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260912
04/13/14 03:41 AM
04/13/14 03:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,526
UK
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,526
UK
I don't think it's necessary to have a tie, if the pitch is there in the previous chord (and is part of the chord, otherwise we're entering Wagnerian realms, which gets tricky)...

It IS an appoggiatura (which as far as I know is the correct answer to this test), but it's a wrong "correct answer", exactly because it's acting as a passing tone (because of the D and B before and afterwards). But on a strong beat (thus my reply of an "accented passing note" which is not part of the curriculum of CM!

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas] #2260916
04/13/14 03:52 AM
04/13/14 03:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
Originally Posted by Nikolas
I don't think it's necessary to have a tie, if the pitch is there in the previous chord (and is part of the chord, otherwise we're entering Wagnerian realms, which gets tricky)...

In formal theory the way it is taught, I believe the tie-rule is in there. Music does more than what formal theory teaches. In fact, one of the books I studied has a caveat in the beginning, warning that what's in there reflects only a certain type of music in a limited period. (Which was interesting to see written out like that).
Quote

It IS an appoggiatura (which as far as I know is the correct answer to this test), but it's a wrong "correct answer", exactly because it's acting as a passing tone (because of the D and B before and afterwards). But on a strong beat (thus my reply of an "accented passing note" which is not part of the curriculum of CM!

EZ's student had written "passing tone", and that was marked wrong. "Accented passing tone" is probably right, but it also makes us think of Fm7 which moves to the Bbm, and then our accented passing tone also acts as an appoggiatura. smile

Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way? laugh

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: AZNpiano] #2260917
04/13/14 03:53 AM
04/13/14 03:53 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
I am thinking passing tone too, but my student's theory test was marked wrong with "passing tone" as answer.

Maybe is something else that I am not enlighten of?

Your student is correct. The answer key contains a different answer.


I am curious, you seen the answer key, what is the answer key to this question?


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260918
04/13/14 03:55 AM
04/13/14 03:55 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Originally Posted by KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way? laugh


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260919
04/13/14 03:58 AM
04/13/14 03:58 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Below is the whole piece.

It is in measure 6, the top E-Flat at beat 3.

Whole Piece

Last edited by ezpiano.org; 04/13/14 03:59 AM.

Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260923
04/13/14 04:26 AM
04/13/14 04:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
Here is your piece, once on piano

once (different key) as an orchestra arrangement

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2260924
04/13/14 04:27 AM
04/13/14 04:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Originally Posted by KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: AZNpiano] #2261234
04/13/14 08:45 PM
04/13/14 08:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,362
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,362
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
It's not a suspension. There would need to be a tie from the previous chord, or at least the same note from the previous chord being replayed on the current chord, followed by a stepwise descent.

Doesn't the fact that there are half notes underneath that are held while the suspension resolves itself count?


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring] #2261237
04/13/14 08:47 PM
04/13/14 08:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,362
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,362
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Originally Posted by KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


I like the way WMTA handles their theory tests. They do their best to put things in there with obvious answers, or rather, obvious examples of the thing they are testing. It's not trying to be obscure or tricky. It sounds like we are in a bit of a disagreement as to what it is, so I'm curious what the answer key says it is, and why they felt this was a good example of one.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2261311
04/13/14 11:44 PM
04/13/14 11:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,315
New York City
P
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,315
New York City
If the answer key says anything other than accented passing tone, the answer key is wrong.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2261321
04/14/14 12:22 AM
04/14/14 12:22 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Just hear back from CM chair, she said the answer key is appoggiatura.


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2261342
04/14/14 01:31 AM
04/14/14 01:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,965
Canada
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Just hear back from CM chair, she said the answer key is appoggiatura.

Do I get a prize? laugh
Originally Posted by keystring
]here is also an appoggiatura feel to it - this heavy lean into the Eb which then resolves to the Db which is part of the Bbm chord....

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2261355
04/14/14 02:06 AM
04/14/14 02:06 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
B
bzpiano Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Hahaha....


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2261358
04/14/14 02:41 AM
04/14/14 02:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,526
UK
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,526
UK
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Just hear back from CM chair, she said the answer key is appoggiatura.
Well.. CM is wrong. Tell them to call me if you want! grin

Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano] #2261404
04/14/14 05:05 AM
04/14/14 05:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member
drumour  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
I can see why they would say it's an appoggiatura - an unprepared dissonance which resolves by step. But they should also have accepted accented passing-note as, if you like, a more specific kind of appoggiatura. It certainly is not a suspension where the dissonant note is held over from the previous chord, in which it is a harmony-note, and then resolved by step.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring] #2261441
04/14/14 07:50 AM
04/14/14 07:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,404
Richmond, BC, Canada
C
Charles Cohen Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Charles Cohen  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,404
Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Originally Posted by KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


Since you asked:

. . . "Theory" is the grammar of music.

In the same way that you can speak, without "knowing" grammar, you can write (and play) music without "knowing" theory.

But when you _do_ know it, it puts what you're doing into a useful structure. It can stop you from making bad choices, and help you make good ones.

And sometimes, you break the rules, because you _really_ like the sound.

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

New In Our Store!
New In Our Store!
A few of the many new items we've added to our online store.
(PianoSupplies.com is a division of Piano World)
wrap around sunglasses with music notes
Wrap around sun glasses with music notes


88 keys, 10 fingers, no problem
88 Keys, 10 Fingers, No Problem


Bass Clef Hat
Bass Clef Hat

Tons more music related products in our online store!
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pianos at PTG and NAMM Conventions
by Grandman. 07/19/18 06:23 PM
What Is My Roland RD-600 Worth?
by AnalogJeff. 07/19/18 04:35 PM
Easy Debussy
by BbAltered. 07/19/18 03:54 PM
Daniel Lozakovich
by pianoloverus. 07/19/18 12:25 PM
Keystation49 or Launchkey49
by Stiglo Olsen. 07/19/18 11:48 AM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics186,496
Posts2,732,941
Members90,597
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1