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#2262160 - 04/15/14 01:47 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Atrys Offline
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@Poly
The answer to OPs question is "no". Discussing the most plausible theories to the next best question is certainly related.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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#2262161 - 04/15/14 01:52 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Originally Posted by Atrys
I did not formulate these theories, obviously. They were formulated by scientists and, as I said, there are currently a few competing hypothesis. Are you Google-handicapped or something? It takes literally seconds to find the latest information about this.

There is no such science, if we are talking about true science. There are merely speculative, untestable hypotheses, way too common in evolution theory.

#2262162 - 04/15/14 01:52 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Oh please let's not have an evolution argument.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2262163 - 04/15/14 01:53 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
[Linked Image]

This made me laugh. grin

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#2262166 - 04/15/14 01:58 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by JoelW

There is no such science, if we are talking about true science. There are merely speculative, untestable hypotheses, way too common in evolution theory.

Well, evolution is a theory in the scientific definition of the word. Evolution is actually an empirically proven fact.

Anyways, there is such science. You just have to not be a science-denier or research-disabled in order to learn it.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262168 - 04/15/14 02:04 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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I started to read the initial post but gave up once I saw there were not any new paragraphs.



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#2262173 - 04/15/14 02:25 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Atrys]  
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by JoelW

There is no such science, if we are talking about true science. There are merely speculative, untestable hypotheses, way too common in evolution theory.

Well, evolution is a theory in the scientific definition of the word. Evolution is actually an empirically proven fact.

Anyways, there is such science. You just have to not be a science-denier or research-disabled in order to learn it.

Microevolution is the empirically proven fact. It's important to distinguish the components of the evolutionary paradigm when talking about the science of evolutionary theory. On one hand we have the thesis of common ancestry which, as you know, says that all living organisms descended from a single primordial ancestor. The evidence for this is impressive and much more abundant than the evidence for the adequacy of proposed mechanisms. The idea that the entirety of biological complexity can be explained solely by natural selective processes is an extrapolation unsupported by empirical science and highly mathematically implausible.

I'm not saying "god" did it, nor am I a science denier. I'm simply pointing out the giant hole in the adequacy of the theory as a whole.

#2262176 - 04/15/14 02:29 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by JoelW
The idea that the entirety of biological complexity can be explained solely by natural selective processes is an extrapolation unsupported by empirical science and highly mathematically implausible.

Wrong again. It is absolutely explained by natural processes (that is the very mechanism of natural selection). The "mathematical implausibility" is a logical fallacy and is not taken seriously in the scientific community.

Originally Posted by JoelW

nor am I a science denier. I'm simply pointing out the giant hole in the adequacy of the theory as a whole.

In fact, you are a science denier (this should be obvious). There are no "giant holes" in the evolution model. Your high school really should have taught you this material.

Often, people who deny evolution as a fact are simply uneducated about it, and they misunderstand the model and evidence. The only giant holes are in your thinking.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262178 - 04/15/14 02:31 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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This debate is going to lead nowhere good. Let's hope a lock is forthcoming.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2262196 - 04/15/14 03:06 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
This debate is going to lead nowhere good. Let's hope a lock is forthcoming.

.....or better yet, telling the combatants to cut it out or start a different thread.


edit (answer to Poly's post below): FSO shouldn't have her thread closed on this account.

Last edited by Mark_C; 04/15/14 03:17 PM.
#2262197 - 04/15/14 03:08 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Do we really want ANY thread on this topic? grin


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#2262214 - 04/15/14 03:28 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Lock it please.

#2262217 - 04/15/14 03:32 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
This debate is going to lead nowhere good. Let's hope a lock is forthcoming.

.....or better yet, telling the combatants to cut it out or start a different thread.


edit (answer to Poly's post below): FSO shouldn't have her thread closed on this account.

True. So I think cut it out is the answer.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2262221 - 04/15/14 03:40 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Why is it so bad to talk about science? Threads get derailed all the time, but that doesn't mean you have to close it. We've stopped talking about it, and nothing ever got out of hand. Don't close FSO's thread for that.

#2262224 - 04/15/14 03:56 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Why is it so bad to talk about science? Threads get derailed all the time, but that doesn't mean you have to close it. We've stopped talking about it, and nothing ever got out of hand. Don't close FSO's thread for that.


It is fine to talk about science if the concept of a theory is understood. There are no facts in science - and that is a fact! There are only observed realities. A good theory is falsifiable. Ptolemy produced a geocentric astronomical theory that worked well for re-establishing the field boundaries along the Nile after each year's flooding. The theory worked, and it was good, because it was falsifiable. The most recent theories are also falsifiable.

Evolution is a good theory. It is not fact.

#2262227 - 04/15/14 03:58 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
This debate is going to lead nowhere good. Let's hope a lock is forthcoming.

.....or better yet, telling the combatants to cut it out or start a different thread.


edit (answer to Poly's post below): FSO shouldn't have her thread closed on this account.

True. So I think cut it out is the answer.

A better answer: Select a different thread.

#2262242 - 04/15/14 04:34 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout
It is fine to talk about science if the concept of a theory is understood. There are no facts in science - and that is a fact! There are only observed realities. A good theory is falsifiable. Ptolemy produced a geocentric astronomical theory that worked well for re-establishing the field boundaries along the Nile after each year's flooding. The theory worked, and it was good, because it was falsifiable. The most recent theories are also falsifiable.

Evolution is a good theory. It is not fact.

I'm no scientist, but it's my understanding that the word "theory" has an entirely different meaning in scientific parlance. Colloquially we use the word "theory" to describe an educated guess (e.g. "I believe Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the US.") But in science, a theory is not merely a guess, but a structure, a framework, a foundation upon which all cumulative related knowledge rests.

Yes, falsifiability is a part of it, but that's a characteristic of all scientific discovery. This edifice that we call a "theory" can indeed be wiped out in a flash if one of its key tenets can be disproved. Which is the beauty of a scientific theory: It makes no assumptions, it has no bias, and it can and will be dismantled if peer review can discover and verify a flaw in the foundation.

But to say that there are "no facts in science", or that evolution is simply a theory (in the colloquial sense), is incorrect. Evolution has stood the test of time. And while theories may get tweaked and refined from time to time, the basic structure remains intact. Would you say that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is merely a "theory", but not fact? How about Newton's Theory of Gravitation? Care to jump out of a plane without a parachute to see how good Sir Isaac's "guess" was? laugh

Last edited by Old Man; 04/15/14 04:48 PM.
#2262246 - 04/15/14 04:47 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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What makes music possible are hearing, memory and pattern recognition. All of those must have evolved because of their survival value, but that doesn't mean that music came about as a sort of chest-beating for attracting a mate.

Add in the pleasure of harmony due to the physical nature of sound, and the satisfaction of expectation, or its temporary frustration, and there's a framework for music. Something similar could be said of vision and the visual arts, which depend on capabilities evolved for survival. And cuisine. But art is beyond mere survival.


Jack
#2262254 - 04/15/14 04:59 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Old Man]  
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Originally Posted by Old Man
Originally Posted by prout
It is fine to talk about science if the concept of a theory is understood. There are no facts in science - and that is a fact! There are only observed realities. A good theory is falsifiable. Ptolemy produced a geocentric astronomical theory that worked well for re-establishing the field boundaries along the Nile after each year's flooding. The theory worked, and it was good, because it was falsifiable. The most recent theories are also falsifiable.

Evolution is a good theory. It is not fact.

I'm no scientist, but it's my understanding that the word "theory" has an entirely different meaning in scientific parlance. Colloquially we use the word "theory" to describe an educated guess (e.g. "I believe Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the US.") But in science, a theory is not merely a guess, but a structure, a framework, a foundation upon which all cumulative related knowledge rests.

Yes, falsifiability is a part of it, but that's a characteristic of all scientific discovery. This edifice that we call a "theory" can indeed be wiped out in a flash if one of its key tenets can be disproved. Which is the beauty of a scientific theory: It makes no assumptions, it has no bias, and it can and will be dismantled if peer review can discover and verify a flaw in the foundation.

But to say that there are "no facts in science", or that evolution is simply a theory (in the colloquial sense), is incorrect. Evolution has stood the test of time. And while theories may get tweaked and refined from time to time, the basic structure remains intact. Would you say that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is merely a "theory", but not fact? How about Newton's Theory of Gravitation? Care to jump out of a plane without a parachute and see how good Sir Isaac's "guess" was? laugh


Actually, having flown aircraft as a commercial pilot for close to 40 years, and having taken recurrent training courses every six months, I can assert that no one actually knows how an airplane flies. They will, however, tell you all the 'facts'. We have a number of competing theories, each of which adequately predicts some aspect of lift vs. drag vs. velocity vs. who knows what. I trust that the aircraft will not fall out of the air each time I ascend, but I am not sure, though I am willing to bet my life on it.

Newton's theory is not fact. It does not adequately predict the orbits of the GPS satellites that I use to navigate. In fact the table of ephemerides (predictions of where the satellites will be at a certain time), are so inaccurate that they must be updated every few weeks.

Einstein's theory regarding gravity better predicts the influence of gravity and has yet to be falsified as has Newton. But it will likely fail at some level not yet within our sensory capability.

#2262255 - 04/15/14 04:59 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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@Old Man
Thank you for doing the heavy lifting for me! Excellent post.

@prout
Evolution is a proven, empirical fact. I think you may not quite have a firm understanding of the these terms and the processes of scientific models, as Old Man elaborated on.

This is a great resource for you to start your "journey": http://www.notjustatheory.com/


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262257 - 04/15/14 05:00 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Atrys]  
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@Old Man
Thank you for doing the heavy lifting for me! Excellent post.

@prout
Evolution is a proven, empirical fact. I think you may not quite have a firm understanding of the these terms and the processes of scientific models, as Old Man elaborated on.

This is a great resource for you to start your "journey": http://www.notjustatheory.com/


I believe in evolutionary theory wholeheartedly. It is not fact. Much of what Darwin postulated has been proven false, but his basic predictive tenets have found support in empirical data using both short and very long term data points. It will undergo major changes as it evolves as well. IT IS NOT FACT!

Last edited by prout; 04/15/14 05:04 PM.
#2262259 - 04/15/14 05:02 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout
It is not fact.

See, this reflects that you do not understand exactly what you're saying. It is a fact. Do some research; the link I provided is great for people who don't quite have a grasp on these concepts.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262262 - 04/15/14 05:05 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Atrys]  
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by prout
It is not fact.

See, this reflects that you do not understand exactly what you're saying. It is a fact. Do some research; the link I provided is great for people who don't quite have a grasp on these concepts.


You obviously believe that Newton's theory of gravitation is fact.

#2262266 - 04/15/14 05:07 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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Boy, talk about stealing a thread! Sorry everybody. I'll try to stop when the 'scienticians' take five.

#2262267 - 04/15/14 05:10 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout

You obviously believe that Newton's theory of gravitation is fact.

Yet another failure of logic. Newton's theory explains the fact of gravity.

You really seem to be having trouble here. Maybe living 40+ years with an incorrect understanding have made you unamenable to objective reality.

Last edited by Atrys; 04/15/14 05:10 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262268 - 04/15/14 05:13 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Atrys]  
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by prout

You obviously believe that Newton's theory of gravitation is fact.

Yet another failure of logic. Newton's theory explains the fact of gravity.

You really seem to be having trouble here. Maybe living 40+ years with an incorrect understanding have made you unamenable to objective reality.


Have you read Einstein?

#2262269 - 04/15/14 05:17 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout

Have you read Einstein?

This is a complete non sequitur.

Your understanding of what theories, models, and facts are is plainly incorrect. Any good scientist (or person with an understanding of these things) will tell this to you. Hard to blame you though, 40+ years of long-term potentiation of false ideas can be hard to rewire, despite factual evidence to the contrary.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262272 - 04/15/14 05:25 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: Atrys]  
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by prout

Have you read Einstein?

This is a complete non sequitur.

Your understanding of what theories, models, and facts are is plainly incorrect. Any good scientist (or person with an understanding of these things) will tell this to you. Hard to blame you though, 40+ years of long-term potentiation of false ideas can be hard to rewire, despite factual evidence to the contrary.


Well, so far you have not provided a single observed reality to buttress your argument. Newton observed gravity. Einstein was able to provide an equivalent to gravity (Principle of Equivalence) implying that free-fall and inertial motion are equivalent. We feel what we call 'gravity' as a consequence of not being able to follow the geodesics of spacetime.

Which is fact?

#2262273 - 04/15/14 05:34 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: prout]  
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Originally Posted by prout

Which is fact?

That literally has nothing to do with any of this. You can answer your own question very easily if you just took the time to actually understand what a fact is and what a scientific theory is.

Evolution is an observable, testable phenomenon. It is a fact that evolution is real. The Theory of Evolution explains this fact.

What are your scientific, or otherwise STEM, qualifications? What is your scientific education? Do you realize what you're asserting is not reflective of what the scientific community operates on?

What about this is so hard for you to understand? I'm for the discourse, but you're not acknowledging these points.

Last edited by Atrys; 04/15/14 05:34 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
#2262276 - 04/15/14 05:39 PM Re: Is There a Static and Universal Musical Truth? [Re: FSO]  
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