Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
112 registered members (7uturu, alexcawley, anotherscott, alphonsus, Almaviva, AndyP, 28 invisible), 1,557 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
#2261442 - 04/14/14 07:56 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: drumour]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,682
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,682
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by drumour
I can see why they would say it's an appoggiatura - an unprepared dissonance which resolves by step. But they should also have accepted accented passing-note as, if you like, a more specific kind of appoggiatura. It certainly is not a suspension where the dissonant note is held over from the previous chord, in which it is a harmony-note, and then resolved by step.


John


Thanks for the explanation. smile


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2261452 - 04/14/14 08:07 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Originally Posted by KS
Deliberately stirring the pot a bit: is there a point in learning these names and being able to label music in this way?


I am sure those who created the curriculum think it is important.

Ah, but I am asking you guys here as musicians and teachers. smile What are your own thoughts?


I think there is more point to it when the example is less obscure.

It is an appoggiatura, but that's not exactly a mainstream usage for the music I run into or am interested in. Isn't the term and usage limited to a fairly short time period?


gotta go practice
#2261674 - 04/14/14 05:34 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,492
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,492
South Florida
At the moment in question you have, for a moment, and accented, a Bbsus chord. It resolves IMMEDIATELY to a Bm chord.

So there IS a suspension feel, but as others have mentioned, a suspension in traditional analysis normally has the suspension start early and is tied over.

Appoggiatura is not the best answer because of what goes before.

I have to agree with those who said accented passing tone. Anyone who does not accept that as a superior answer has no business writing these tests. frown

And I'm assuming it is "multiple guess".


Piano Teacher
#2261725 - 04/14/14 07:26 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
Canada
I didn't use "sus" because in those kinds of exams it's not used or recognized, and I found quite a few classically trained people don't seem to be familiar with it. But sus is exactly what it is. Thank you for pointing that out, Gary.

Quote
... a suspension in traditional analysis normally has the suspension start early and is tied over.

I'm tempted to highlight the word "traditional" because that is the problem with these kinds of exercises. Btw this is not my original idea; it was pointed out to me a few years ago, and since then I see the point. In traditional music theory we are given an artificial model which is based on a simplified version of Baroque music frozen in time. (Baroque itself evolved).

When preparing for these kinds of exams (or preparing the student for this kind of exam) we have to keep in mind "what the examiner wants" and "what slot to put things into". If I were writing the exam I would write in "accented passing tone". But I would hope that my teacher would let me understand what can actually be heard in the music, which is beyond these slots. (Or if I were teaching it, to do that.) That is the reason why I asked the question that I did earlier. smile

#2261938 - 04/15/14 04:44 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,036
Mark Polishook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mark Polishook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,036
Leicester, UK
As Polyphonist has said a few times already it's an accented passing tone. That's all it is. No ambiguity. No uncertainty .. Nothing. Just accented passing tone.

What makes this stuff seem obscure - and perhaps even entirely useless - is the brevity of the reply from the so-called chair who said the answer key says 'blah-blah-blah. If all they're testing is the ability to label something in reference to an answer key THAT's the problem.




#2261943 - 04/15/14 05:00 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,491
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,491
UK
Mark, I said that as well...

But in all honesty, if we look at the music itself, there's a bit of an ambiguity going on there... Yes, that particular note is an accented passing note, only that the previous note (the G) comes in as an 8th, and not in a "straight", diatonic line with the rest of the previous notes. In fact it is a sequence, which is not diatonic that comes into play from the previous bar.

So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.

#2262004 - 04/15/14 08:12 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,036
Mark Polishook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mark Polishook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,036
Leicester, UK
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

I agree with you on the larger context. For me anytime the reply comes back in the form of " that's the answer on the sheet," well that's a problem. So the use of the question as you point out should be questioned (is questionable).

But, anyway, you did say pretty much all of this earlier in the discussion!

Last edited by Mark Polishook; 04/15/14 08:13 AM.
#2262012 - 04/15/14 08:29 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by Nikolas
So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.


Any test question that can generate this much discussion (and at least mild disagreement) from experienced teachers and interested amateurs would seem to be a bad question to ask a young student.


gotta go practice
#2262051 - 04/15/14 09:46 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
Canada
Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

I agree with you on the larger context. For me anytime the reply comes back in the form of " that's the answer on the sheet," well that's a problem. So the use of the question as you point out should be questioned (is questionable).

But, anyway, you did say pretty much all of this earlier in the discussion!

Not to mention that "accented passing tone" is not what they wanted according to their answer key - it was appoggiatura. frown

#2262055 - 04/15/14 09:52 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,491
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,491
UK
You know...

Now there's a different issue at hand:

a. How to persuade CM to take on someone else to write the tests?
b. If the above doesn't happen (cause I've been hearing stories about CM for quite some time now), how to persuade the parents to NOT ask for CM testing... hmmm...

#2262174 - 04/15/14 02:26 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by Nikolas
You know...

Now there's a different issue at hand:

a. How to persuade CM to take on someone else to write the tests?
b. If the above doesn't happen (cause I've been hearing stories about CM for quite some time now), how to persuade the parents to NOT ask for CM testing... hmmm...


If there's one esoteric question on the test, it might be no big deal. Everybody will miss it except by luck.

If there are many that would be a problem.

Long ago in grad school I had a course in test design, and I vaguely remember we had to do statistical tests on each question and evaluate the test itself.


gotta go practice
#2262239 - 04/15/14 04:31 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Mark Polishook]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,492
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,492
South Florida
Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
Sorry Nicholas!

What I should have said is -

"As Nicholas and Polyphonist have said several times in this thread it's an accented passing tone."

Originally Posted by Gary


Appoggiatura is not the best answer because of what goes before.

I have to agree with those who said accented passing tone.

Ignored again. smile


Piano Teacher
#2262245 - 04/15/14 04:45 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,048
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,048
Orange County, CA
I wish people wouldn't take ONE test question to represent the entire testing system. It's one bad question. That happens.

The last time I checked, MTAC is hiring test writers for CM. If you want your work to be analyzed, dissected, and scrutinized to death, please apply.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
#2262261 - 04/15/14 05:05 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Nikolas]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,492
Gary D. Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Gary D.  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,492
South Florida
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Mark, I said that as well...

But in all honesty, if we look at the music itself, there's a bit of an ambiguity going on there...

I said that too.
Quote

Yes, that particular note is an accented passing note, only that the previous note (the G) comes in as an 8th, and not in a "straight", diatonic line with the rest of the previous notes.

What G?

The core of what is happening from M5 through M6 is basically Gb (maj7) to Fm to Bb. I see no G natural anywhere.

Because the last two notes of Measure 5 are Eb and Db, and they are the same length, if we were to replace the Eb quarter with a "tiny note" and follow it with the Db as a half note, suggesting divide the "big note" in half in value, it would work pretty much like the same idea in Mozart. It's by no means not impossible to see this as an appoggiatura.

To me a fully intelligent answer would pick BOTH possibilities.
Quote

So, while I'm the one who mentioned the accented passing note, I am questioning, in a more general sense, the use of such a question in such a difficult passage.

I said the same thing. I still say it.

The problem is a simplistic test. I believe you are saying the same thing. smile


Piano Teacher
#2262410 - 04/15/14 11:34 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,491
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,491
UK
Yeah G flat and Eb, etc... I didn't use any accidentals in any of my posts, plus I did not notice the clef change (in my first post, but not the subsequence ones)...

And, you did say the same thing... Sorry... :-/

Last edited by Nikolas; 04/15/14 11:35 PM.
#2265326 - 04/22/14 02:42 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
bzpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
What should I do next?

My student's score is 99.99333%. He missed only this question, out of 150 total points.

For me, to argue and win is not the point, it doesn't effect my student's score or whatsoever.

For me, I want to know the truth. If the truth is having multiple answers, I like to know that they are willing to accept a slightly different answer that is different than the answer key as long as it make sense.

I am totally agree with TimR that a "grey question" like this should no appear on the test for merely CM10 student (not even college level eh?).

I am also totally agree with Mark Polishook that the problem that I have now is that the reply I got from the authorities is....that is the answer on the answer sheet...that is it...period...no more discussion....(this is not the exact word, but this is how I read it.)

What should I do next?


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
#2265330 - 04/22/14 02:50 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,118
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,118
New York City
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
My student's score is 99.99333%. He missed only this question, out of 150 total points.

That certainly wouldn't give him a score of 99.99.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2265332 - 04/22/14 02:52 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
bzpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Hihi...I am bad at math...that is 99.33%


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
#2265684 - 04/23/14 03:09 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,048
AZNpiano Offline
7000 Post Club Member
AZNpiano  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,048
Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
What should I do next?

Do nothing.

It's just one question.

Life goes on.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
#2265751 - 04/23/14 08:54 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
What should I do next?


Your math isn't bad, that answer was at least half right.

That's a pretty dedicated student to get 149/150, and I'm guessing is a bit of a perfectionist.

You might want to explain to him/her that the question was gray and that their answer had some merit. It showed some understanding and some thought.

And then........if there is ever going to be a need for this student to understand when to use an appogiatura and when to use a passing tone, in the type of music they'll be playing, you might want to go just a bit deeper and be sure they know it, intellectually and in practice.

Is it trivia memorized for the test, never to be encountered again? or something more fundamental to their future development? that makes a difference.

A student somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum can have a very hard time letting go of a grade like this, and may obsess over it for weeks.


gotta go practice
#2265799 - 04/23/14 11:29 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
bzpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
It was the mom that is not letting go...
I sent out email to explain the "grey question" like this sometimes occurs in the test. I explained that the teacher who corrected it has to follow the answer sheet. I explain that sometimes there are more than one answer to the questions, but only one would be accepted by the evaluator. Student said thanks (to my impression, he is totally okay with it, he is a smart teenager), but mom continuously to ask if I hear anything back from the chair about this case.
The chair just told me the answer is appoggiatura without further explanation or whatsoever.
I personally think that if the authorities can recognize and agree that it is a grey question, then it is an organization that always think there is still space for improvements. People are not perfect, organization are not perfect either. We all do mistakes we all do have space for improvements.

Last edited by ezpiano.org; 04/23/14 11:39 AM.

Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
#2265863 - 04/23/14 02:03 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
That example in no way sounds or functions like an appoggiatura!!! Composition comes before theory: in this case we have a technical loop-hole with the theoretical definition. Issues like this occur when theorists [over]think, instead of listen. Someone was trying to be clever; instead they demonstrated that they don't now how to listen to music. Which begs the question: what's the point?!?

That was an accented non-chord tone (aka accented passing tone).

Last edited by A443; 04/23/14 02:15 PM.
#2265928 - 04/23/14 04:35 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A454.7]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,890
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by A443
That example in no way sounds or functions like an appoggiatura!!!


It does sound like an appogiatura to my ears; perhaps I misunderstand the function.

What, pray tell, IS the function of an appogiatura?

(not even wanting to get into the function of the acciacatura so often mistakenly confused with it)



gotta go practice
#2265943 - 04/23/14 05:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
@TimR, did you listen to the YouTube example that was given?

Based on that recording, are you really saying that the example sounds like an appogiatura? Or did you simply play/read the isolated notes in question out of context?

#2265947 - 04/23/14 05:28 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
Canada
The way these things are probably set up, is that you start with a list of things that are to be taught at a given grade level. I went along the RCM, but this is probably similar. Once the terms are taught, they also have to be examined since there are exams and grades. So somebody is tasked with finding an example of an appoggiatura or whatever, to stick into the exam, and it starts with the definition.

All of these things can be taught without ever referring to sound; like a combination of algebra and geometry. One can fill out work books, memorize things, without ever getting at sound. The exam itself will not involve sound. How many students are able to audiate?

I just looked for an "official" definition of appoggiatura and found this:
http://www.theflipsideforum.com/index.php?topic=4355.10;wap2

Where we find:
Originally Posted by above source
Accented Passing Notes
These are a type of appoggiatura, and are not as common as unaccented passing notes. They occur on the beat and fill in the gap between two pitches. They are usually found in descending scalic passages, but can sometimes occur ascending. In chorale harmony, one passing note may be inserted between consonant pitches a 3rd apart. Usually the note before the accented passing note will be a consonance, however it is possible to have an accented passing note after an unaccented passing note in a scalic passage.

There is a much longer section of several paragraphs specifically on appoggiaturas.

If somebody is going by this type of definition (not saying whether it's good or bad), then we can see why they decided on appoggiatura as an answer. Or - that they were seeking an appoggiatura for the exam, and came up with that music to find one.

-----
I printed out the score when the question came up, and played it. However, that was slow playing and what one might hear as an appog. type of leaning might not be there at tempo. And then there is the rhythm, and other elements that were already discussed. If they were looking for appogg. then that piece was probably a poor choice.

#2265986 - 04/23/14 06:22 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
bzpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bzpiano  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,090
Irvine, CA
Wait...I am learning too...
Accented Passing Tone = Appoggiatura?


Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Follow my 4YO student here: http://bit.ly/FollowMeiY
#2265991 - 04/23/14 06:39 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
We can be pretty sure that is exactly what happen: someone(s) went out in search of a clever example that would/might mess-up a student on an exam. I take issue with that kind of learning and testing, not to mention the aforementioned issue of how historically appoggiatura sound and function--it just looks like an appoggiatura under a microscope, once you pan out you realise: that is compositionally not what is going on at all.

Come on, let's please remember that appoggiaturas have historical connotations: the reason we study them is for their historical significance in breaking counterpoint rules of very early music. The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!

Audiation, as keystring points out, is the entirety of the problem. When you look at a score, you need to be able to hear what you see in your head. That is what the person who chose the example failed to do: audiate.

Point that out, and get your points back!

#2265992 - 04/23/14 06:41 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,012
PianoStudent88 Online content
4000 Post Club Member
PianoStudent88  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,012
Maine
I found this webpage interesting. A443, does this link seem accurate? Or is it still too divorced from sound and historical function?

[Severely edited my original post so as not to speak above my pay grade.]

Last edited by PianoStudent88; 04/23/14 07:21 PM.

Piano Career Academy - Ilinca Vartic teaches the Russian school of piano playing
Musical-U - guidance for increasing musicality
Theta Music Trainer - fun ear training games
#2266006 - 04/23/14 07:19 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A454.7]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,402
Canada
Originally Posted by A443

Come on, let's please remember that appoggiaturas have historical connotations: the reason we study them is for their historical significance in breaking counterpoint rules of very early music. The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!


When theory is taught formally, it tends to be based on a simplified and restricted model of Baroque music. It is artificial. When I studied it a few years back, I ended up with 4 books because each one had something missing. One of them had a caveat in the preface, warning teachers that it was a simplification because of the limited knowledge of music that students would have at that stage, and inviting teachers to expand per their judgment. Another book told students that the rules were for the Baroque period - that music has moved on - that rules such as prohibiting parallel fifths was also period-specific. They tried to push beyond the limitations by example by stressing the importance of the tritone, and sneaking that in as much as possible. Nonetheless the book existed to fuel study for the RCM exam. What it tried to do was too ambitious.

The most memorable thing for me was the chapter showing examples of what Bach did, and then warning students not to break the rules that Bach broke. shocked

The book trying to be progressive tried to include music, which most of the harmony theory books don't do. There are about 40 examples from music for each chapter. The problem is that some of the examples are out of context - something being pulled out of the middle of a piece where it is going through a series of modulations, showing an "example" of a rule, but within the whole it is not doing that. It was pointed out to me that this produces poor musical thinking. So in that sense:
Quote
The MacDowell example is c.300 years afterwards!

Yes, as per the above. It is a poor choice.

But then what is the sense of learning all these terms? Are they for concepts and hearing? Yes, the appoggiatura historically is not what we have in that piece. Nonetheless, one can hear a "leaning" and release, which the appogg. does. Can student and teacher explore and discuss this, and thus develop the ear.

The same was true for the "suspension which isn't". A suspension has a note that is held over and is tied - which we don't have there. But the ear still hears a late developing, after-the-fact - suggested suspension, which is a very interesting thing to explore. And then we have "sus chords" which aren't really talked about in harmony theory, and some of that feel is there.

Anyway, early on I put out the challenge as to why these studies exist, which I hoped might engender some food for thought. If you have a reason why, it might also affect how you decide to teach, and what. Notwithstanding the social pressure by some families to have their kids get high grades in exams, just because.

#2266009 - 04/23/14 07:28 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: bzpiano]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A454.7  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,577
Manywheres
@PianoStudent88, thats a good link. That link explains, from a historical context, how an appoggiatura SOUNDS. That is what is important.

The question is: can you hear it?

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Ken Knapp 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
(ad)
A. Geyer Pianos
A. Geyer Pianos
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Removing very old keys
by Don B. Cilly. 05/23/17 06:39 AM
The biggest problem of performing and teaching
by Vladimir Dounin. 05/23/17 04:06 AM
Posting images
by BruceD. 05/22/17 11:29 PM
Looking for Carillon Bell Sound
by SoundThumb. 05/22/17 11:08 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,829
Posts2,628,953
Members87,852
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0