Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
I know that [the OP] knows "song" is incorrect usage, so using it deliberately looks a lot like....trying to troll the forum.....
I doubt it. I agree that our guy probably does know that "song" is frowned upon by many here but I think he probably just doesn't consider it as a big deal.
Originally Posted by bennevis
3) Be totally unique that nobody, but nobody, can turn you down. Like Vladimir de Pachmann, who chatted and gave a running commentary while playing, and applauded himself or shouted 'Bravo!' when he played a tricky passage particularly well (or rather, better than normal for him) .
Many people regarded (and still regard) Pachmann as being considerably more than that. I mean, what you said is true. His unique absurdity undoubtedly added to his reputation (as well as subtracted). But he also had very great gifts to his playing, and as I've said before, I consider his recordings as the closest hints we have about what Chopin's playing might have been like. To be sure it's at best a caricatured version -- but I think it's at least a version, with a delicacy and types of rubatos and a range of pianissimos that I consider in line with descriptions of Chopin's playing.
I doubt it. I agree that our guy probably does know that "song" is frowned upon by many here but I think he probably just doesn't consider it as a big deal.
That is true, it's not something I care about. I am kind of curious though, because calling it a 'song' seems so natural to me, is that a regional variation, or do most people make that mistake?
The 14A etude does nothing for me, musically speaking. The only reason I think somebody would attempt it is because it's known to be Ligeti's "unplayable etude".
Maybe that is intentional, maybe part of the difficulty is to sustain concentrated practice and endure learning a piece that does nothing for you musically speaking?
That is true, it's not something I care about. I am kind of curious though, because calling it a 'song' seems so natural to me, is that a regional variation, or do most people make that mistake?
We "sophisticates" call it a song only if it's something that is sung -- i.e. a vocal thing.
The way a lot of people here see it is, these things:
Younger people tend to call any music thing a "song," sometimes even any kind of thing at all that gets "played" on youtube or audio CD's. And really, to some extent the music and CD industries do that.
It is also usually regarded as a relatively recent thing, i.e. that this didn't happen until about the last couple of decades, and got momentum mainly since youtube.
And....this is the "snob" way of looking at it, but it's partly true: People who don't know that much about classical music tend to call any music thing a song.
But, these things are only partly true. When I was a kid, which was about 200 years ago my teacher, who was an old-school pianist and teacher (Russian), often called piano pieces "songs." Maybe she just did it with kids, I don't know. But that's how it was.
Some classical music types, including here, go pretty nuts over it when people call piano pieces "songs." They think it's a sign of not knowing that much, or not being that advanced. And y'know, there is a correlation there.
But I think they're fighting a losing battle. I think the language is evolving to where it won't be long before it will be considered absolutely normal and correct to call any music thing a song. That will bother a lot of people here. It doesn't bother me at all.
Anyway not nearly as much as when they say "shipping" even if a boat isn't involved. And I'd bet almost all of the people who complain about calling piano pieces "songs" do say "shipping" even if a thing comes by truck or plane or pigeon.
And I'd bet almost all of the people who complain about calling piano pieces "songs" do say "shipping" even if a thing comes by truck or plane or pigeon.
Not only do I never use "shipping", but I hadn't heard it used as it is now (for any sort of transport of goods) until maybe the last few years ("postage and handling" is what we used to say, and still do in some circles). Maybe I've just been living under a rock.
As to the "song" thing, I don't think I'm a snob. I don't usually comment on it, but it does annoy me because it's turning a specific term into a general one, and what do you do when you want to be specific? You now have to say "I really love this song, that is, this vocal work". I just wish I could now use "song" in the context of classical music and not have to further explain. I know language changes, and I realise it appears to be a losing battle, thanks to iTunes and youtube and all that stuff. But please, don't call me a snob just because I would like to keep the precise term.
Not implying that you are actually calling me a snob, Mark.
Hardest piece questions are made difficult by the fact that there is lots of horrendously unplayable stuff that someone could write in theory for no reason. I could probably write the hardest piano piece in the world in Sibelius right now. There would be no music in it, but oh well.
When you make music a requirement, then you get into the difficult issue of how much musicality a piece has to have to be considered, like this Ligeti Etude.
My vote goes to Gaspard de la Nuit as a piece that is musical poetry and where every ounce of the virtuosity serves the music. I haven't heard an interpretation approaching this one:
That is true, it's not something I care about. I am kind of curious though, because calling it a 'song' seems so natural to me, is that a regional variation, or do most people make that mistake?
We "sophisticates" call it a song only if it's something that is sung -- i.e. a vocal thing.
The way a lot of people here see it is, these things:
Younger people tend to call any music thing a "song," sometimes even any kind of thing at all that gets "played" on youtube or audio CD's. And really, to some extent the music and CD industries do that.
It is also usually regarded as a relatively recent thing, i.e. that this didn't happen until about the last couple of decades, and got momentum mainly since youtube.
And....this is the "snob" way of looking at it, but it's partly true: People who don't know that much about classical music tend to call any music thing a song.
But, these things are only partly true. When I was a kid, which was about 200 years ago my teacher, who was an old-school pianist and teacher (Russian), often called piano pieces "songs." Maybe she just did it with kids, I don't know. But that's how it was.
Some classical music types, including here, go pretty nuts over it when people call piano pieces "songs." They think it's a sign of not knowing that much, or not being that advanced. And y'know, there is a correlation there.
But I think they're fighting a losing battle. I think the language is evolving to where it won't be long before it will be considered absolutely normal and correct to call any music thing a song. That will bother a lot of people here. It doesn't bother me at all.
Anyway not nearly as much as when they say "shipping" even if a boat isn't involved. And I'd bet almost all of the people who complain about calling piano pieces "songs" do say "shipping" even if a thing comes by truck or plane or pigeon.
+1 Well said, Mark.
I think it's also that people who have made a serious commitment and invested thousands of hours in learning and playing the piano, see the casualness of the word "song" as dissonant to the rigor and dedication they have brought to the piano. Kind of like someone saying, "Oh, you know, I just learned one of those Beethoven thingies, I think it was a sonata or something like that, in c minor. No, maybe it was A-flat major. Whatever."
One would immediately discount the seriousness and commitment of the speaker. It doesn't exactly compel one to want to hear them, or perhaps even to carry on a serious musical discussion with them.
In other words, not so much snobbery (although that definitely exists), but rather a reaction to something at odds with a deeply integrated part of one's being.
I do agree that the evolution of language will continue unabated, but I'm not so sure that professional and serious amateur musicians will start calling their pieces "songs" anytime soon. At least, I hope not!
I don't like pieces that aren't songs getting called songs because it's so misleading. Songs are usually pretty short, about 2-10 minutes in duration. Calling a small one-movement piece a song isn't that bad IMO, since the "only" difference between a piece and a song in that case is the fact that the piece isn't sung. When it comes to symphonies and sonatas, using the term "song" is, IMO, belittling and even insulting (especially if used intentionally) and definitely misleading.
Then you have cases like fugues and piano transcriptions of songs. For example, if someone says to me: "I love this song" when listening to a Bach fugue I understand what they mean but I get the impression that they don't really know what a fugue is.
Now, if someone says to me: "I love this song" when listening to a piano transcription of a Schubert Lied, the way I understand that is that they are referring to the original Lied, not to the piece which is being played.
Working on
Chopin: op. 25 no. 11 Haydn: Sonata in in Eb Hob XVI/52 Schumann: Piano concerto 1st movement Rachmaninoff: op. 39 no. 8
....please, don't call me a snob just because I would like to keep the precise term.
Huh.....let's see, did I indicate anything like that....
Fortunately I didn't. What I said (or at least meant!) was:
I was calling people snobs who look down on those who don't use the term in the precise way, and who assume it means they don't know that much and are probably a bit stupid.
And I hold to that.
And y'know, I guess you could say that makes me a snob.
P.S. (edit): About "looking down" on them.... I actually look UP on them. Because, to a great extent, it represents new people becoming interested in classical music (or at least talking about it) who hadn't been much into it before.
Don't we want more of that, not less? Don't you want to embrace them and encourage them, not kick their ass because they don't use a word in the technical way? And compared to the fact that they're actually talking about classical music, isn't it the tiniest drop in the bucket that they're saying "song"?
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/10968.png)
