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#2224675 - 02/02/14 03:29 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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compianist1 Offline
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the way I see it, it doesn't really bother me....when I record a piano solo with the F20, it will play it back with the proper piano sound, which I just record as audio to my mp3 player through direct connection. And by the way I am really impressed with the recordings, they are pristine and sound natural. I compared it with a Clementi performance on a real piano and I can hardly tell the difference. I don't know why some reviewers said that the middle and upper range of notes in the F20 sound 'artificial', because that's not my experience at all, to me it sounds really good.

And if I have to play back a midi file of something else, the F20 will do that too. So there's no problem. Most digital piano don't have a GM set at all.

The only problem is that I can't do this test easily

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#2224824 - 02/02/14 08:39 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: compianist1]  
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if anyone is interested, here's a good review of the F20.
I am not affiliated to the shop or anything.

http://www.ukpianos.co.uk/roland-f-20

#2225188 - 02/03/14 01:11 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Hi Is there are any plans to do the Kawai es7 or is it the same as the MP6. I think it is the same although there may be differences since it is a later model.

#2225597 - 02/04/14 06:38 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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it's weird. I tried the pianoteq again today with the F20. The ppp on the pianoteq is better and more beautiful(on the F20, I can only get p or pp ) but the f and ff on the F20 absolutely trashes pianoteq. On pianoteq, it overall feels like you have to work a lot harder to get louder dynamics, something the F20 excels at (i.e. it's easy and natural to get and control loud dynamics). I tried all the 3 velocity settings on the F20, from light to heavy. Actually, the F20 has 4, which is the button off setup. The Roland manual says that with the button off, the response is as close as that to a real acoustic piano as possible, and I completely agree as it feels really good and natural.

Also, on the Pianoteq I get a clarity problem. The F20 has a pristine quality and clarity, that the pianoteq doesn't have. I tried one of my pieces with both, which has a repeated A (the one in the middle of the keyboard) in the melody, played staccato by alternating the thumbs of both hands, at moderate speed, 4 times. The left thumb plays that note at exactly the moment where the LH is not playing any chords, so the LH ,basically, is momentarily 'sharing' the melody part. It's reminiscent of an harpsichord, with a staccato sound, which is exactly how it should sound. On the F20, i hear this harpsichord effect with all the repeated staccato A's with crystal clear quality. On the pianoteq, it's a lot more indistinct, it sounds more like a jumble of sound, it completely destroys the effect. Same technique, completely different results.

Also, as I noted in another post, the overall playability of a good hardware digital piano, in my opinion and experience far surpasses the playability with a PC sample library and a master keyboard.

So, even though these very tests for software pianos in this forum are really interesting and extremely useful, I have to say that to me it all looks like an exact case where 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2, i.e. in theory the software piano has more than everything compared to an hardware good digital piano, so it should feel sound and better, but to me that's not the case at all.

Strange, but true. No matter how I turn it, i.e. the F20 uses apparently more limiting technology that pianoteq or one of the sampling libraries I have; no matter if these use apparently more advanced technology, no looping, this and that, to me the F20 still wins overall, hands down. I am not saying that pianoteq isn't worth buying: it's a great buy and if I didn't have the F20, i'd buy it. I agree it's the best piano modelling software available. I do prefer it to sampling libraries because the latter can have really annoying and sudden layer switches (which on the F20 i cannot hear at all)

But still, a strange case where 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2. And this is not the first time I experience that. Another time I experienced a very similar 'corny' thing about recording guitars ( I have been playing guitar for almost 20 years) where I had all the numbers and theory nailed on paper and a lot of experience with it, but in practice, the 1 + 1 = 2 formula again was completely shattered. Too long to explain, but it produced a similar result like the pianoteq vs F20, i.e. what in theory should have sounded and feel better, didn't, and actually the solution that worked really well was the one which looked more primitive, limiting or cheaper etc.


Last edited by compianist1; 02/04/14 06:50 AM.
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#2225710 - 02/04/14 11:48 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: musicman100]  
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Originally Posted by musicman100
Hi Is there are any plans to do the Kawai es7 or is it the same as the MP6. I think it is the same although there may be differences since it is a later model.

Yes, it's been in the pipe waaay too long. Sorry, will try to get to the backlog soon.

#2225760 - 02/04/14 01:49 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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And what about Kawai CA95/CS10? shocked

#2226017 - 02/04/14 10:08 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: compianist1]  
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Originally Posted by compianist1
it's weird. I tried the pianoteq again today with the F20. The ppp on the pianoteq is better and more beautiful(on the F20, I can only get p or pp ) but the f and ff on the F20 absolutely trashes pianoteq. On pianoteq, it overall feels like you have to work a lot harder to get louder dynamics, something the F20 excels at (i.e. it's easy and natural to get and control loud dynamics). I tried all the 3 velocity settings on the F20, from light to heavy. Actually, the F20 has 4, which is the button off setup. The Roland manual says that with the button off, the response is as close as that to a real acoustic piano as possible, and I completely agree as it feels really good and natural.. . . . .


The obvious question:

. . . Is there a way to change the relationship between "MIDI velocity" and "loudness" _inside Pianoteq_?

That might give you the "ff" and "fff" that you're missing.

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2244218 - 03/10/14 11:38 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Any plans for the MP7 and MP11 ??


10.000 clowns on a rainy day
#2245896 - 03/13/14 11:44 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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2^6 VIEWS!

[Linked Image]

Though gazing upon the DP truth can be horrifying. Thanks for your moral support and interest!

#2255102 - 03/31/14 11:42 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Ok, just curious. What has been the most surprisingly poor performance from an expensive digital piano we might have expected to sound amamzing???


Hammering stings into time.
#2255110 - 04/01/14 12:03 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: milana piano]  
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Originally Posted by milana piano
Ok, just curious. What has been the most surprisingly poor performance from an expensive digital piano we might have expected to sound amamzing???


The AvantGrand N3 comes to mind as having a very lack luster piano tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hway_tTFOzc

Even though Cyprien Katsaris is a fine pianist even he is not able to coax anything that is remotely convincing from this overhyped digital. The piano sounds are downright artificial and plinky at best and the lack of realism does not support the ridiculous price you have to pay to own it. Also, many older Clavinova's (like the CLP-990) have piano sounds that surpass the N3.

#2255112 - 04/01/14 12:07 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
The AvantGrand N3 comes to mind as having a very lack luster piano tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hway_tTFOzc

Even though Cyprien Katsaris is a fine pianist even he is not able to coax anything that is remotely convincing from this overhyped digital. The piano sounds are downright artificial and plinky at best and the lack of realism does not support the ridiculous price you have to pay to own it. Also, many older Clavinova's (like the CLP-990) have piano sounds that surpass the N3.


Quoted for when pv88 inevitably purchases an AvantGrand and back-pedals on his previous opinion.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2255121 - 04/01/14 12:49 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]  
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@James,

Extra note:

Just had a couple of slightly sticking keys adjusted on my CLP-990 yesterday, so that along with the previous pedal repair keeps it in very good condition for what is now a 13 year old digital. Don't think I will trade it in for an AvantGrand any time soon, although if something eventually comes along that does everything the V-Piano can do and has some really convincing and authentic piano sounds, then that new *model* (whatever it may be) could be a consideration.

#2255239 - 04/01/14 09:42 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Quoted for when pv88 inevitably purchases an AvantGrand and back-pedals on his previous opinion.

Oh dear, I believe we've finally flipped James over to the dark side.

#2255248 - 04/01/14 09:57 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: milana piano]  
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Originally Posted by milana piano
Ok, just curious. What has been the most surprisingly poor performance from an expensive digital piano we might have expected to sound amamzing???

Yes, the AG sound technology was a disappointment, particularly due to expectations given action, cabinetry, price, etc. IMO Yamaha tends to write hype checks their products can't cash, though that's generally true perhaps to a lesser extent with all DP manufacturers. The CP1 was also a let down after the massive build-up which included the introduction of new jargon implying modeling.

More generally I suppose the trend of shorter, over-processed, blander loops in recent Yamaha and Kawai products has been something of a surprise. Almost the entire market is stuck in the backwaters of technology, a quagmire of soul-sucking banality. It's almost like they're afraid to spend $1 on Flash, $2 on a 2-line LCD, or $10 on a decent processor - I really don't get it. The engineering departments are busy designing iPod interfaces to essentially 1980's products.

#2255364 - 04/01/14 01:43 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Vid Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
The engineering departments are busy designing iPod interfaces to essentially 1980's products.


I wonder if its demoralizing if your job is to be one of those engineers??? I hope modelling paves the way of the future and these companies are forced to adapt of perish. The reality is the average consumer of digital pianos know nothing.


Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D
#2255713 - 04/02/14 12:22 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster
[quote=milana piano] Almost the entire market is stuck in the backwaters of technology, a quagmire of soul-sucking banality. It's almost like they're afraid to spend $1 on Flash, $2 on a 2-line LCD, or $10 on a decent processor - I really don't get it. The engineering departments are busy designing iPod interfaces to essentially 1980's products.

What he said.

#2257609 - 04/06/14 12:12 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: compianist1]  
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Originally Posted by compianist1
it's weird. I tried the pianoteq again today with the F20. The ppp on the pianoteq is better and more beautiful(on the F20, I can only get p or pp ) but the f and ff on the F20 absolutely trashes pianoteq. On pianoteq, it overall feels like you have to work a lot harder to get louder dynamics, something the F20 excels at (i.e. it's easy and natural to get and control loud dynamics). I tried all the 3 velocity settings on the F20, from light to heavy. Actually, the F20 has 4, which is the button off setup. The Roland manual says that with the button off, the response is as close as that to a real acoustic piano as possible, and I completely agree as it feels really good and natural.

Also, on the Pianoteq I get a clarity problem. The F20 has a pristine quality and clarity, that the pianoteq doesn't have. I tried one of my pieces with both, which has a repeated A (the one in the middle of the keyboard) in the melody, played staccato by alternating the thumbs of both hands, at moderate speed, 4 times. The left thumb plays that note at exactly the moment where the LH is not playing any chords, so the LH ,basically, is momentarily 'sharing' the melody part. It's reminiscent of an harpsichord, with a staccato sound, which is exactly how it should sound. On the F20, i hear this harpsichord effect with all the repeated staccato A's with crystal clear quality. On the pianoteq, it's a lot more indistinct, it sounds more like a jumble of sound, it completely destroys the effect. Same technique, completely different results.

Also, as I noted in another post, the overall playability of a good hardware digital piano, in my opinion and experience far surpasses the playability with a PC sample library and a master keyboard.

So, even though these very tests for software pianos in this forum are really interesting and extremely useful, I have to say that to me it all looks like an exact case where 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2, i.e. in theory the software piano has more than everything compared to an hardware good digital piano, so it should feel sound and better, but to me that's not the case at all.

Strange, but true. No matter how I turn it, i.e. the F20 uses apparently more limiting technology that pianoteq or one of the sampling libraries I have; no matter if these use apparently more advanced technology, no looping, this and that, to me the F20 still wins overall, hands down. I am not saying that pianoteq isn't worth buying: it's a great buy and if I didn't have the F20, i'd buy it. I agree it's the best piano modelling software available. I do prefer it to sampling libraries because the latter can have really annoying and sudden layer switches (which on the F20 i cannot hear at all)

But still, a strange case where 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2. And this is not the first time I experience that. Another time I experienced a very similar 'corny' thing about recording guitars ( I have been playing guitar for almost 20 years) where I had all the numbers and theory nailed on paper and a lot of experience with it, but in practice, the 1 + 1 = 2 formula again was completely shattered. Too long to explain, but it produced a similar result like the pianoteq vs F20, i.e. what in theory should have sounded and feel better, didn't, and actually the solution that worked really well was the one which looked more primitive, limiting or cheaper etc.


Sometimes I wonder if what you are hearing is because of the old technology instead of despite the old technology: with shorter, looped samples, the hum of the loop is reached by the time a note is repeated, creating a less harmonically rich sound, since the upper partials have died a bit, and making the attack of new notes stand out. Yet at the same time, the hum of the loop emulates the the soundboard resonance. There are thus several older keyboards that still have an interesting sound that may project the attack well---the "Perfect piano" in the old Ensoniq ZR-76, the samples in the Roland RD-600.

I wonder, too, if the micing for the sampling process differs. I can imagine that older libraries, wanting a strong attack, and thus a brighter sound that could be darkened with a lp filter for soft strikes, would focus the mics closer to the hammers, while newer libraries, wanting to capture the longer decay and able to use more layers to vary the timbre instead of a lp filter, might include more mics further from the hammers or move the mics a little further away from the hammers. Only speculation, here.

As far as Pianoteq goes--have you tried editing the Direct duration in combination with the Impedance and possibly the Sympathetic resonance? Increasing the Direct duration will focus the sound more on the attack and reduce the decay a bit, as will, of course, reducing the Impedance and the resonance. I would encourage trying small edits in various combinations, and changing the edits from one range of notes to the next.

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 04/06/14 12:29 PM.
#2260440 - 04/11/14 08:55 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Jake Jackson]  
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Interesting thoughts. Thanks.

#2304906 - 07/21/14 03:22 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Monopsony.

#2305010 - 07/21/14 06:25 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: compianist1]  
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Originally Posted by compianist1
it's weird. I tried the pianoteq again today with the F20. The ppp on the pianoteq is better and more beautiful(on the F20, I can only get p or pp ) but the f and ff on the F20 absolutely trashes pianoteq. On pianoteq, it overall feels like you have to work a lot harder to get louder dynamics, something the F20 excels at (i.e. it's easy and natural to get and control loud dynamics). . . .



Pianoteq lets you put in your own velocity mapping, that sets the relationship between the keyboard's MIDI-velocity output, and Pianoteq's internal "loudness" number.

If you want Pianoteq to respond "ff" to your touch, rather than "f", just change the curve!

That feature is in _all_ versions of Pianoteq, including "Stage". And it's not difficult to use.

. Charles




. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2305770 - 07/23/14 06:48 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Hi, Im new to the Forums in writing, because Ive been reading them for a while...

2 months ago I bought a copy of Ivory II American Concert D and I like it very much.
Ive generated the audiofiles with the current MIDI file (v2.0 if I remember well) using the Cantabile interface Ivory II uses as a standalone application.

Where and how do I upload the files??? (I have generated MP3 and other lossless audiofiles using last demo of Adobe Audition)

BEST REGARDS FROM SPAIN!!!

#2305818 - 07/23/14 09:17 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Marcos Daniel Offline
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I think you have to send a private message to Dewster...

#2307805 - 07/27/14 02:10 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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dewster Offline
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Ran across this the other day, I had no idea ARM processors had reached this point:

http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G138745696275

A single board 1.7GHz quad core computer for $65 - retail!

I forget - could someone please explain to me again why DPs are required to suck so hard and cost so much with this kind of thing on the open market? Who is holding back my fully sampled Casio for $500?

#2307889 - 07/27/14 06:01 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Marcos Daniel Offline
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Don't forget about cheap plastic keys with optical sensor and a very, very far pivot point :p

#2307915 - 07/27/14 07:55 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Very cool little board!
If Pianoteq could run on ARM this would be a perfect system for pairing (or evening mounting inside) a VPC1 or other controller.

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2308082 - 07/28/14 09:44 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James]  
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dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Very cool little board!
If Pianoteq could run on ARM this would be a perfect system for pairing (or evening mounting inside) a VPC1 or other controller.

Yes, hook it up to a small screen and a wireless keyboard / mouse and you'd be ready to go. I know there are Linux builds of Pianoteq, but I don't believe any target the ARM unfortunately.

#2308103 - 07/28/14 11:10 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
I know there are Linux builds of Pianoteq, but I don't believe any target the ARM unfortunately.


Yes, it's x86 only.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2308110 - 07/28/14 11:20 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]  
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Excuse me, but do I see a small, fanless, inconsequential looking CPU capable of 1.7GHZ x 4, plus 2G RAM, all for 65 dollars? (about 48)?

This - even with Moore's law and so on - is pretty amazing.

If this 'reduced instruction set' technology is so good, why aren't we all using it? Perhaps we are.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 Ult. / Focusrite Saffire 24
W7, i7 4770, 16GB / Monitors: Yamaha HS7s .

Prudence is a rich ugly old maid courted by Incapacity. He who desires, but acts not, breeds pestilence.
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven & heck
#2308114 - 07/28/14 11:34 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: toddy]  
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Originally Posted by toddy
If this 'reduced instruction set' technology is so good, why aren't we all using it? Perhaps we are.

Here is a wiki on the Exynos processor. There are even more powerful versions of it in various products (Chromebook, Galaxy, etc.) so, yes, we are all already using it (in some sense).

If you want 4 cores @ 2GHz + 4 "small" cores + USB3 Hardkernel offers this for $179:

http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G140448267127

The extremely cumbersome and inefficient Intel architecture should never have been allowed to become as dominant as it has. In a more perfect world IBM would have picked anything but Intel for the initial PCs. (And anything but DOS. That was a match made in heaven - NOT!) I get the feeling the IBM guys were just tossing stuff together in the belief that the PC wouldn't go anywhere.

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