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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: Polyphonist] #2241998
03/06/14 02:56 AM
03/06/14 02:56 AM
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Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
If an unfingered Henle edition exists, I purchase that one; for example, in the case of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, there are two versions available, one with fingering and one without. If no such unfingered edition exists, I purchase whatever is available, but take no fingering for granted, except that of the composer - most composers write in fingering very infrequently, therefore when they do there is probably a good reason for it.

When you are teaching, do you just give editions to students without any fingering, if you can?


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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242078
03/06/14 08:55 AM
03/06/14 08:55 AM
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Polyphonist Offline
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Indeed. If they really need fingering for something, I can provide it.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242129
03/06/14 10:53 AM
03/06/14 10:53 AM
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Miguel Rey Offline
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Besides ornaments and fingering both of which are suggestive and can be found if researched, how is the accuracy of the Alfred editions? I have never heard of Alfred being on the same level or superior to urtext. That and print quality is #1 for me




Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: Miguel Rey] #2242187
03/06/14 01:16 PM
03/06/14 01:16 PM
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John v.d.Brook Offline
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Originally Posted by Miguel Rey
Besides ornaments and fingering both of which are suggestive and can be found if researched, how is the accuracy of the Alfred editions? I have never heard of Alfred being on the same level or superior to urtext. That and print quality is #1 for me

The Alfred edition, edited by Willard Palmer, is easily the most authoritative edition available to serious students and Bach interpreters. However, there is such a thing as information overkill. For the average student, a clean edition, where you, the teacher, can add supplemental ornamentation, modify fingering, etc., Henle remains my first choice. And it is an edition which will be acceptable should they continue studies at the college level.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242259
03/06/14 04:10 PM
03/06/14 04:10 PM
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Houston, TX
Ataru074 Offline
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Baerenreiter verlag has 2 excellent editions.
BA5241 with fingering. and BA5150 without.



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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: John v.d.Brook] #2242276
03/06/14 05:07 PM
03/06/14 05:07 PM
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Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
However, there is such a thing as information overkill. For the average student, a clean edition, where you, the teacher, can add supplemental ornamentation, modify fingering, etc., Henle remains my first choice.

I agree with you about overkill. Palmer makes me feel a bit "claustrophobic". smile

I prefer working from an edition that has no fingering as few "suggestions" as possible, but I think that is highly impractical for students who have very little experience.

And if students need a lot of help with fingering having to write in the help for each new student gets really old if an edition suggest fairly sane fingering, and I only have to change things here and there.

But if a student is to the point of working out his/her own solutions, then I would like that student to start with minimum editing.


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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242289
03/06/14 05:33 PM
03/06/14 05:33 PM
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PianoStudent88 Offline
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Speaking purely as a student working now without a teacher, I have learned a lot from the fingering in editions of music I have used. I also don't hesitate to change the fingering if it doesn't work for me. I have also discovered that some fingering seems to be designed for very advanced and subtle effects, and it may actually be too advanced for me, and other, simpler fingering would be better at my stage. But I think I have learned to recognize these situations, and again feel comfortable making changes. So I like editions with fingering, because it gives me at least one alternative to consider besides what I would think of, and I think it's better to have alternatives than to only have what I would think of.

On the other hand, I don't find the articulations in the Alfred editions to be very helpful, because I don't understand the principles behind them. Are they just made up as one way of articulating the music? Do they represent a set of largely agreed-upon principles about how to articulate Baroque music? Something in between? Also they don't often agree with what I would think of for articulation (ill-informed as I may be, of course). So the Alfred articulations just leave me feeling constrained and uninformed. At one point, I had a teacher who had studied piano with a Baroque expert for 10 years, and I desperately wanted her to teach me about Baroque performance practice, but she just completely avoided doing so, and much preferred music with preprinted articulations and dynamics so as to tell the performer what to do, instead of working it out from first principles. That was really frustrating.


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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: Gary D.] #2242291
03/06/14 05:48 PM
03/06/14 05:48 PM
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Olympia, Washington, USA
John v.d.Brook Offline
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BTW, John Thompson had an edition back in the 50's which actually showed the subjects and the first and second counter-points. If this edition is still available, it is very helpful to insure that you're placing the emphasis on the correct phrases.

The OP didn't share with us why he/she was asking the question, whether he/she was a teacher, student or attempting to self-teach the inventions and sinfonias. As a teacher, I would want to have multiple resources available to insure I was presenting the material in as much depth as the student can handle.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242298
03/06/14 06:05 PM
03/06/14 06:05 PM
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PianoStudent88 Offline
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I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: several of Henle's Bach books come in both fingered and unfingered versions. Check the publication number to be sure you're getting the one you want. Of course the fingerings are provided by editors, in almost all cases, not by Bach.


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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: PianoStudent88] #2242299
03/06/14 06:08 PM
03/06/14 06:08 PM
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet:

Really? whome


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242306
03/06/14 06:24 PM
03/06/14 06:24 PM
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PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet:

Really? whome

Yes, really, that's what I thought!

I see now that Hrodulf did say:

Originally Posted by Hrodulf
I can say that I use some of the Henle fingerings but I change a few so even Henle's suggestions are not the last word.

so the fingerings in Henle have been mentioned. But I can't find a post on this thread that explicitly explains there are two Henle versions, fingered and unfingered.

By your grinning smiley-face I suspect that I am overlooking a post that does mention it, and most likely one of yours. I did review the thread, twice, honest gov!

Last edited by PianoStudent88; 03/06/14 06:25 PM.

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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: Polyphonist] #2242318
03/06/14 06:56 PM
03/06/14 06:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
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Polyphonist Offline
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
If an unfingered Henle edition exists, I purchase that one; for example, in the case of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, there are two versions available, one with fingering and one without. If no such unfingered edition exists, I purchase whatever is available, but take no fingering for granted, except that of the composer - most composers write in fingering very infrequently, therefore when they do there is probably a good reason for it.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2242328
03/06/14 07:13 PM
03/06/14 07:13 PM
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Maine
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PianoStudent88 Offline
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Oh! Yes, now that I see it, I remember that post. Could I borrow your handkerchief to rub some of this egg off my face?


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Re: Bach's inventions: Complete [Re: BOREGARD] #2255490
04/01/14 06:04 PM
04/01/14 06:04 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 75
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BOREGARD Offline OP
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Thanks to all who recommended a complete edition of Bach's inventions. Appears as if Henle wins out. But much discussion and disagreement about the various forms of ornamentation that accompany the inventions.

Thanks again!

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