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Not necessarily.

The previous generation PHAIII action utilised by the FP-7F, RD-700NX, and V-Piano would appear to be the same. However the keyboard action utilised by the FP-80 and LX-15e may well be different.

Cheers,
James
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Excellent points.

I have recently begun using a pretty high end digital piano for night time practice, though, and for that (practicing when others are sleeping) it is indispensable. I use it in conjunction with a great virtual piano software package, and I am able to get a lot of great work done on it. In my experience it is more responsive than any upright I've ever played.

I'm lucky enough to also have a Steinway L, too though.

But that doesn't apply here. Enthusiast claims to have found the LX15 and the FP 80 actions quite different.

However, both those pianos use what Essbrace has just said is the same action under a different name: PHA III Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement for the one and Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement for the other.

Jay Roland has just said that Essbrace is right. So yes, any perceived difference between them is indeed an illusion, apparently.

As I say, this one keeps running

The perceived differences in how the keyboard feels from instrument to instrument is not an illusion. People can't separate the mechanics of the action from the surrounding materials that support the action. If you mount an action to a pillow I'm sure it will feel different than the identical action mounted to a steel beam. Just because someone loves how the Roland action feels on the LX-15 doesn't mean that feel will translate to a 35lb stage piano made of entirely different supporting material. You have to test the action on the keyboard you intend to buy if you really want to know whether or not it will be to your liking. Even the simple addition of some felt makes the PHAIV feel different than the PHAIII.

Hideki Matsui said: The perceived differences in how the keyboard feels from instrument to instrument is not an illusion. People can't separate the mechanics of the action from the surrounding materials that support the action.

Well maybe, but I would describe that as more illusory than substantial, since what we're talking about here us the keyboard action - not all the surrounding paraphernalia which really will have a negligible influence on the action and the player's real engagement with the actual keys.

These differences, if they exist at all in a substantial sense, would be extremely marginal, surely.

Yes that's right it was the LX15 with PHAIII action. I checked and it was on clearance sale presumably because the newer LX15e needed to put on display.

I didn't play the FP-80 for long but I could feel a very noticeable difference. If anyone else has tried these two models back to back I'd be interested to hear opinions. I didn't really notice that sort of difference between the CA95, CS10 and MP11 in that shop.

May I ask which shop you visited, Enthusiast?

Cheers,
James
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So the felt added to the PHAIV on the LX-15e has made a negligible difference when compared to the PHAIII on the LX-15? I think you would have to have hammer hands to not feel the difference.

People are going to have varying levels of sensitivity to subtle differences. While you might find differences negligible, that same difference might feel significant to someone else. I don't think chalking it up to illusion is the answer nor do I think EssBrace or Jay Roland suggested as much.

Without making any assumptions about your skill level, I will also note that someone like Martha Argerich will most likely be more sensitive to subtle differences than a beginner with little control over dynamics.

For clarification. The FP-80 uses PHA-3 (Ivory Feel S version) and the LX-15e employs the newer PHA-4 Concert. These two variants will feel markedly different to anyone familiar with a quality digital piano action.

Jay

Thank you Jay!



May I ask if this is different to the FP-7F's keyboard action?



May I ask how this is different to the (original, i.e. without the 'e') LX-15's keyboard action?

Cheers,
James
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I haven't actually commented on the PHAIV at all since I've never tried one. I am looking forward to doing so, though.




I agree, the word 'illusion' is not a positive one. Essbrace used the words 'perceived differences'.



Evidently a competent pianist will have a much more developed sensitivity to the feel and response of the keys than a beginner. But I very much doubt that a great pianist would pay so much minute attention to these differences as we do.

Regarding digital pianos, from the comments I've read and seen, professional performing pianists' criticisms are more concerned with the limits and gradation of expression that digital pianos are able to deliver.

The differences between various makers, models and forms of acoustic pianos - even those of above reasonable level of quality - vary far more than the differences between those of the main DP manufactures. These differences are (in my opinion) relatively slight.

It was Rose Morris in London. I was also in Yamaha Music London (formerly Chappell of Bond Street) just before. Both have a treasure trove of DP's, Keyboards and workstations to try and don't seem to mind you spending ages there. In addition to those I mentioned I also had a go on the HP508, RD800, CP4, CVP609, Avantgrands and a silent piano. That was all after playing on a S6 Grand for an hour so good fun. There's also a shop specializing in Casio next door to Rose Morris and the Steinway Hall among others not far from there so the opportunities for trying both DPs and APs there are excellent.

I really liked feel of the b3e SG2 silent piano. Seemed better than the NU1 Avantgrand.

There's no physical difference in the action between the FP-7F and FP-80.

In the LX-15e, the PHA-4 Concert (and Premium) have decreased the mechanical thump that all digital actions make to Varying degrees. This was accomplished through a couple of design and material enhancements within the action.

I personally find the initial throw of the keys to have a TINY bit more weight, and the point at which the keybed bottoms is softer than the PHA-3. I haven't actually measured the down weight to see what the difference is. Like I've said before, specs don't matter as much as sound and feel.

All the new PHA-4 equipped pianos also employ a similar technology to the V-Piano, in that there is actually a separate processor scanning the keybed and offering 100 times the resolution that PHA-3 was able to.

This is a good reminder thread. I started out trying to find a digital that would emulate an acoustic very well. I was dissatisfied with most. I then started looking at acoustic pianos, and for $2000 could get 'garbage, for $3500 could get 'barely acceptable' and really needed to spend $5500 on a used upright to get half way to what I really wanted. At the same time I accepted that the digital will never be an acoustic, and finally started to overlook some of the differences.

I ended up with a Kawai MP10. So far, I really like the feel and sound. It is not the same as having an acoustic piano in the room, but it sounds good and feels good to play, and certainly is better than nothing.

Acoustic pianos are like furniture in some ways - they are big and heavy and you will end up looking at it every day. Because of that, it becomes a major decision to a lot of people. My house is small so I feel that I need to carefully consider what I get and where I put it.

That being said, I find that the digitals that try to replicate the action of an acoustic are more enjoyable to play. Each piano feels different, whether it's acoustic or digital.

What does that mean exactly? What effect does it have?

Basically what that means is that the separate keybed processor is able to take care of reading the actual keystrokes and feeds the sound engine the most accurate possible data so expression and dynamics is always exactly what the player wants.

Anything that eases load on the sound engine so it can just make the sound is a good thing, and I'm glad that this has been included in the new series.

These pianos have to do a lot of instantaneous calculations to create the sound that they do, so taking some of that load off of the sound engine was a smart design decision. Especially with the updated SuperNatural engine doing even more than the previous one did in terms of nuance and resonance.

Anything with a PHA-4 action will employ this processor and will allow for greater sensing of the inputs of the player.

In practical application, I've found that I've been able to really dig the tone out of the piano and found it really responds incredibly well to all my playing inputs.

I've spent a LOT of time the last couple of days on the RD800 and HP508. I'm preparing to do a clinic event in Southern Alberta this weekend. Every time I sit down, I enjoy them more and more.

I'm hoping my boss will allow me to use the HP508 at home. If not, there's a beauty DP-90Se-PW (Polished white) that I may ask for as well if it is still around when I get back from Alberta.

Thank you for your explanations Jay.

Cheers,
James
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Wow, you're lucky to have access to such a great selection of instruments!

I bought my LX15 on mid July 2013 and am very upset to find out that the newer LX15e has a better and less noisy keyboard. After a month or two playing with that at night, my wife and son complained the thump noise was too loud and wake them up...since that I seldom touch my piano as I couldn't only find time to play at night. My $6K was a big waste.

Wish I knew the LX15e would come in Jan2104, I would have had waited for just few more month for a quieter keyboard...

I would try to do some sound-dampening treatments to your room. There are relatively cheap ways of helping to reduce this to those in the next room. There will always be the next best thing right around the corner, and not much you can do about that. But other than that, do you like your LX15? If so, try to make it work, if not, cut your losses and sell it while it's still under warranty and can get a decent price and look at other instruments you can buy instead.