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Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures #2050818
03/19/13 11:57 AM
03/19/13 11:57 AM
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McBuster Offline OP
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Had reason to have a Tech come out and attempt a minor repair. The "G" above "Middle C" has a twang to it the other keys do not. If earphones, or recordings, it is clear as the others. When using the keyboard, it is there.

So, here is what is inside these beasties. My sincerest apologies to assumptions I made earlier about how these are made inside.


[Linked Image]

After the back board is removed.

[Linked Image]

After the top board is removed. Pretty uniform - for sure.

[Linked Image]

After the panel by your knees is removed.

[Linked Image]

The transducer is anchored to the back board. The other end of the transducer, is attached to the soundboard.

[Linked Image]

What I call the HandiPanel.

[Linked Image]

The board for the Sound Engine.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The Sound Engine Board with and without flash.

[Linked Image]

The panel by your knees.

[Linked Image]

The panel above your feet.

[Linked Image]

The top panel with the midrange speakers - four of them.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Amplifiers

One for the Tweeters, one for the MidRange and one for the Transducer.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Power Supply stuff

[Linked Image]

An adapter panel. Located beneath the Sound Engine. The black cord veers right to the amps. It is quite long and is coiled up and tied to the bottom.

+++

Hope you folks enjoyed this.



Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2050863
03/19/13 01:07 PM
03/19/13 01:07 PM
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Very nice Jon, thanks for sharing your pix!

Added to the Nekid Pichures thread.

Wow, that soundboard looks real! So many boards and wiring harnesses, I'm kind of surprised at how "bits and pieces" the CA95 construction is. Looks like lots of plastic in the key action? And the obligatory aluminized chipboard key base even in a home model.

Were you able to find what was causing the buzzing / rattle / whatever? Unwanted resonance can be a bear to track down.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2050979
03/19/13 03:51 PM
03/19/13 03:51 PM
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Now I feel dirty. :X


-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: dewster] #2051024
03/19/13 05:38 PM
03/19/13 05:38 PM
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<<Wow, that soundboard looks real! >>

It is ... The Transducer does wiggle this sucker, and it does make the lower sounds in the room more voluminous.

<<So many boards and wiring harnesses, I'm kind of surprised
at how "bits and pieces" the CA95 construction is.>>

Not really. It is no different than other digital contraptions. Each cable/assembly has a purpose.

<<Looks like lots of plastic in the key action?>>

Each individual key is solid wood and the Keybed Frame and individual Hammers are indeed a plastic. Kawai has used plastics and composites for many years now and these components are absolutely stable.


<<And the obligatory aluminized chipboard key base even in a home model.>>

The entire cabinet is made of a high density chipboard. Very hard, very heavy, I might add. This protects from warpage. The aluminum shields protect the circuits from stray RF things eminating from outside the box.

<<Were you able to find what was causing the buzzing / rattle / whatever? Unwanted resonance can be a bear to track down.>>

Sadly, no. The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And G is still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

Thanks!


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051028
03/19/13 05:54 PM
03/19/13 05:54 PM
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Here is the Kawai Grand Feel. Note the wood and the plastic.

[Linked Image]


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051090
03/19/13 09:56 PM
03/19/13 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by McBuster
The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And F and F# are still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

I wonder if the midrange speakers have a natural resonance? Or does it seem to be coming from the soundboard? If you can't tell where it's coming from you might try unplugging one speaker at a time to see if it goes away.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051119
03/19/13 11:14 PM
03/19/13 11:14 PM
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The Tech did the combinations to see if it could be tracked to a speaker or amplifier. We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it. This is not a serious problem - just an annoyance.

We decided on a couple of things. One, wait a few months and take the pulse then. Two, I will go to a local music store and try 1-2 other 95's to see what they sound like.

Thanks



Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051141
03/20/13 12:49 AM
03/20/13 12:49 AM
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I wonder if I will be able to spot these issues when I do get my CA-95 (seeing as I'm a total beginner). Is this something only a trained ear/finger can spot?


-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051144
03/20/13 12:59 AM
03/20/13 12:59 AM
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"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The CA 65 and 95 are wonderful pianos. Play them and do not get too nit picky of key spacing nor whatever until you are familiar with it. In my case, that specific note was a bit sour compared to the others. That was aggravating. Hence, a call was placed.

But, do not search for things that may or may not be there ... Enjoy it ...


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051168
03/20/13 02:43 AM
03/20/13 02:43 AM
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Hi McBuster,

Originally Posted by McBuster
The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And F and F# are still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

The Tech did the combinations to see if it could be tracked to a speaker or amplifier. We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

Thanks



Is the above mentioned 'shifting of the keyboard' that you tried a mechanical or electronic change? In the latter case, I think the issue cannot be a mechanical one, right?

Ciao,
Paolo


Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051176
03/20/13 03:17 AM
03/20/13 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by McBuster
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The CA 65 and 95 are wonderful pianos. Play them and do not get too nit picky of key spacing nor whatever until you are familiar with it. In my case, that specific note was a bit sour compared to the others. That was aggravating. Hence, a call was placed.

But, do not search for things that may or may not be there ... Enjoy it ...


Not sure if you were referring to me, but anyway -- I'm not out to search for tiny details, I have heard enough here about how the keyboard of the piano is constructed. I'm just wondering if I will be able to find real but not so obvious problems.


-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051191
03/20/13 04:06 AM
03/20/13 04:06 AM
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Im surprised to see no toroidal transformers, more expensive than regular square transformers but they produce a cleaner signal with virtually no hum or feed-thru


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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Paolo70] #2051229
03/20/13 07:43 AM
03/20/13 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Paolo70
Hi McBuster,

Originally Posted by McBuster
The Tech tightened every screw etc he could see. And F and F# are still different than the rest. So, I will have to get used to that, I guess. But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

The Tech did the combinations to see if it could be tracked to a speaker or amplifier. We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

Thanks



Is the above mentioned 'shifting of the keyboard' that you tried a mechanical or electronic change? In the latter case, I think the issue cannot be a mechanical one, right?

Ciao,
Paolo


Electronic using the Virtual Technician. Mechanical would appear to be very difficult to do.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Clayman] #2051232
03/20/13 07:46 AM
03/20/13 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Clayman
Originally Posted by McBuster
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The CA 65 and 95 are wonderful pianos. Play them and do not get too nit picky of key spacing nor whatever until you are familiar with it. In my case, that specific note was a bit sour compared to the others. That was aggravating. Hence, a call was placed.

But, do not search for things that may or may not be there ... Enjoy it ...


Not sure if you were referring to me, but anyway -- I'm not out to search for tiny details, I have heard enough here about how the keyboard of the piano is constructed. I'm just wondering if I will be able to find real but not so obvious problems.


Real vs Not So Obvious

Hmmmm ... Imho, these are fantastic instruments and of the CA63 and CA93 and now the CA95 I have owned, this Twang in a couple of keys was all I have ever found. Is it "Serious"? Not at all. A "Show Stopper"? No. On a One to Ten - "Irritating"? I find it a Three.

My whole goal here was to find one speaker with the screws needing one more twist. And done. We will see what six months brings.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051235
03/20/13 07:50 AM
03/20/13 07:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by McBuster
But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

[...]

Electronic using the Virtual Technician.


If the tonal characteristic of the note in question moves up/down when transposed, it's almost certainly a component of the original sample, and therefore not a mechanical issue.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Kawai James] #2051241
03/20/13 08:10 AM
03/20/13 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by McBuster
But he and I did agree, it is indeed mechanical and not electronic.

[...]

We also shifted the keyboard up a half step and a full step and down as well. The "Twang" shifted with it.

[...]

Electronic using the Virtual Technician.


If the tonal characteristic of the note in question moves up/down when transposed, it's almost certainly a component of the original sample, and therefore not a mechanical issue.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hmmmm ...

I thought the opposite. If one key plays the note that sets the mechanical side abuzz, moving that note to another key would do the same thing. Right?

Assuming the key mechanism is not at fault, but some other mechanical component that lights up at a certain frequency from sound produced by the speakers, which key was used would have no bearing.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051243
03/20/13 08:13 AM
03/20/13 08:13 AM
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Do you hear the 'twang' in headphones as well as speakers?

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051246
03/20/13 08:18 AM
03/20/13 08:18 AM
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@KawaiJames
It could still be a mechanical issue in the sense that something mechanical is resonating -- excited by a very specific partial in one particular note. I'm always amazed how a particular note on my acoustic can excite buzzes outside the piano -- e.g., a window blind, a light fixture, or a part of the piano's cabinetry. We've all probably seen this, so I suppose this is an obvious point.


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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051248
03/20/13 08:23 AM
03/20/13 08:23 AM
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Yes, I know what you mean guys.

Hmmm...well, the headphone test is probably the best way to find out.

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Kawai James] #2051253
03/20/13 08:29 AM
03/20/13 08:29 AM
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As I stated at the top, using headphones, or a recording, the Twang dissappears.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051258
03/20/13 08:39 AM
03/20/13 08:39 AM
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Ah, my apologies...I missed that.

Time to call it a night!

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051263
03/20/13 08:51 AM
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Here is the original Link to the Sounds I hear. On my headphones and with my ears, I do hear a difference.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1983577/Kawai%20CA95%20-%20(G)%20Above%20Middle%20.html#Post1983577



Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2053511
03/24/13 01:10 PM
03/24/13 01:10 PM
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Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Hookxs] #2053566
03/24/13 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hookxs
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.


Give me a day or two ... Thanks ...


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Hookxs] #2056374
03/29/13 04:26 PM
03/29/13 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hookxs
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.


Tried this. On my version, whether a recording or headphones, Left or Right Channel, all is normal. I hear it only, when using the soundboard/speakers etc.



Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250261
03/21/14 11:53 PM
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So what are the markings on a 2 large chips? It is impossible to read anything from the photos. I'm pretty sure there is one of Renesas CPUs SH-1, SH-2, SH2-DSP, SH-2A, SH2A-FPU. But which one??

HI7000/4 Real-time OS for SuperH Family

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250321
03/22/14 03:52 AM
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Try temporarily moving the CA95 to another room.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250376
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Nothing wrong with using plastic in the keybed - short of CNC machining nothing can compare with the dimensional precision of injection molding, and due to high tooling cost it makes sense you would see it in a keybed which can be amortized across several models.

I am surprised at the sound system. I expected to see some speaker box bracing, porting, placement similar to a higher end studio monitor. It seems there would be huge room for improvement in this area utilizing the same amps and drivers. I do like the soundboard/transducer concept, don't stop there Kawai!

Last edited by Yasu; 03/22/14 07:54 AM.
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250403
03/22/14 08:52 AM
03/22/14 08:52 AM
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Curious that the power supply pics show such LARGE heat sinks.
The need to dump heat == inefficiency {IMO}
Power supplies are SUPPOSED TO HAVE low internal resistance, etc.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250407
03/22/14 08:57 AM
03/22/14 08:57 AM
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re the twang; Any chance off hooking up a signal generator and "injecting" that frequency directly to the speaker board ?
It could be something as simple as a loop of speaker wire that is just the 'wrong' length for that note.
Things like that can HANG differently when the assembly is in/out of the cabinet or held vertically/horizontally.

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