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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051258
03/20/13 08:39 AM
03/20/13 08:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,490
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Ah, my apologies...I missed that.

Time to call it a night!

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2051263
03/20/13 08:51 AM
03/20/13 08:51 AM
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Posts: 440
St Paul Minnesota USA
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McBuster Online embarrased OP
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Here is the original Link to the Sounds I hear. On my headphones and with my ears, I do hear a difference.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1983577/Kawai%20CA95%20-%20(G)%20Above%20Middle%20.html#Post1983577



Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2053511
03/24/13 01:10 PM
03/24/13 01:10 PM
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Posts: 310
Czech Republic
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Hookxs Offline
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Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Hookxs] #2053566
03/24/13 03:27 PM
03/24/13 03:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 440
St Paul Minnesota USA
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Originally Posted by Hookxs
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.


Give me a day or two ... Thanks ...


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Hookxs] #2056374
03/29/13 04:26 PM
03/29/13 04:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 440
St Paul Minnesota USA
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McBuster Online embarrased OP
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Originally Posted by Hookxs
Hi McBuster, I only recently discovered your thread about the twang of G4. I have similar (I should say exactly the same) issue so I know what you are talking about even if it's difficult for others to hear it on your referenced recording.

At first I was like you and thought that the issue was mechanical, but now I am not so sure. I have a suspicion that the twang might be indeed part of the sample, but it is only present in one channel of the stereo sample. Could you please try the following test: play the key or a piece of music where the twang manifests itself and record it (to USB probably). Then open the recording on your computer, mute one of the channels and play it back, do the same with the other channel. Are both channels twang-free or do you now hear the twang in one of the channels?

I hear the twang clear as day from speakers, in headphones I am not sure because I now expect the twang and it's difficult to stay objective, I would therefore welcome your opinion, because you now what the issue is about. Thank you. It would be good if other CA95 owners listened to the stereo samples of G4 (possibly at different velocities) separately and told us if they hear the twang.


Tried this. On my version, whether a recording or headphones, Left or Right Channel, all is normal. I hear it only, when using the soundboard/speakers etc.



Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250261
03/21/14 11:53 PM
03/21/14 11:53 PM
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midenok Offline
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So what are the markings on a 2 large chips? It is impossible to read anything from the photos. I'm pretty sure there is one of Renesas CPUs SH-1, SH-2, SH2-DSP, SH-2A, SH2A-FPU. But which one??

HI7000/4 Real-time OS for SuperH Family

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250321
03/22/14 03:52 AM
03/22/14 03:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,271
UK
S
spanishbuddha Online content
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Try temporarily moving the CA95 to another room.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250376
03/22/14 07:53 AM
03/22/14 07:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
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Yasu Offline
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Posts: 10
Nothing wrong with using plastic in the keybed - short of CNC machining nothing can compare with the dimensional precision of injection molding, and due to high tooling cost it makes sense you would see it in a keybed which can be amortized across several models.

I am surprised at the sound system. I expected to see some speaker box bracing, porting, placement similar to a higher end studio monitor. It seems there would be huge room for improvement in this area utilizing the same amps and drivers. I do like the soundboard/transducer concept, don't stop there Kawai!

Last edited by Yasu; 03/22/14 07:54 AM.
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250403
03/22/14 08:52 AM
03/22/14 08:52 AM
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R_B Offline
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Curious that the power supply pics show such LARGE heat sinks.
The need to dump heat == inefficiency {IMO}
Power supplies are SUPPOSED TO HAVE low internal resistance, etc.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250407
03/22/14 08:57 AM
03/22/14 08:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 965
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re the twang; Any chance off hooking up a signal generator and "injecting" that frequency directly to the speaker board ?
It could be something as simple as a loop of speaker wire that is just the 'wrong' length for that note.
Things like that can HANG differently when the assembly is in/out of the cabinet or held vertically/horizontally.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250423
03/22/14 09:59 AM
03/22/14 09:59 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,017
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Gee - has anyone noticed that this thread is a year old? Doubtful that the OP is going to respond.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250528
03/22/14 02:10 PM
03/22/14 02:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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Depends... maybe it has been replaced BECAUSE of the twang thang.
At a guess this thread is still on his watched topics list, he MIGHT be interested in either warning other potential owners off, or reassuring them.
One way or another it should have reached a conclusion by now - doncha think ?



Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2250865
03/23/14 08:33 AM
03/23/14 08:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6
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Splash Offline
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Mine is a CN-34 and I have a similar problem. F below central C has a metallic sound when is pressed hard. It is clear when not using headphones but it is gone when transposing. My opinion is that all Kawai DPs share the same sample.

Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2251838
03/25/14 09:36 AM
03/25/14 09:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 440
St Paul Minnesota USA
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McBuster Online embarrased OP
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Okay fellas, after one year ...

The "Twang" is more subtle, still there, and if it aggravates me enough, I have another three-finger bourbon. And if I do not imbibe, I simply do not care anymore and simply ignore the thing. My playing is so lousy, that is the --least-- of my issues these days.

:-)


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: Splash] #2251845
03/25/14 09:54 AM
03/25/14 09:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 579
Spanish living in UK
evamar Offline
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Spanish living in UK
Originally Posted by Splash
Mine is a CN-34 and I have a similar problem. F below central C has a metallic sound when is pressed hard. It is clear when not using headphones but it is gone when transposing. My opinion is that all Kawai DPs share the same sample.


All that say that they share it, that is... there might be different samples depending on models/ages. It also happens with the CA65. Again, we are only talking of a handful of notes, not a biggie.

I prefer the Concert Grand 2 voice anyway, and it's almost not noticeable using it, enough for me and I'm quite picky. Even though the Concert Grand 1 is supposed to be better, it is a bit too bright for me but that's just my taste, I really like the Grand 2.

But I really cannot understand why actual faults existing in the acoustic (and that metallic ring in certain notes is a fault, not a characteristic) is reproduced in a digital, when it would be just so easy to correct it. Precisely because it is far more noticeable with speakers than it is with the acoustic. The acoustic piano might camouflage it with its rich undertones (and all those characteristics...) but it can be quite obvious in a digital using that sample, so how it will sound in the digital should be more important that how it actually sounds in the acoustic.

I thought that pianists with trained ears are extremely exigent, so really cannot understand digitals reproducing faults. Let them try to get as close as possible to the best things, but they already have their own problems as to also imitate the problems of the acoustics.

Don't get me wrong, very happy with my dp, and I still think that it offers far more than any at its price range, but I simply think that it would be much better if instead of reproducing faults the acoustic sound was adapted to sound at its best in a different medium, because a dp is not an acoustic, as simple as that.

KawaiJames, just in case you are reading this... any chance of a software update to amend those metallic notes in the sample? It should be easily done by all those clever Kawai sound engineers... laugh
Just to make it even better.... Please pass the feedback as several people seem to notice it.


Last edited by evamar; 03/25/14 10:02 AM.

Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted

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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2251882
03/25/14 12:06 PM
03/25/14 12:06 PM
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St Paul Minnesota USA
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Just another piece of info.

As I stated in the original post, long ago, if I record to a USB Drive or wear headphones, this Twanging issue is -----not----- present. All the sampled notes sound the same in tone charm wit personality and looks.

It is -----only----- when I use the speakers/soundboard and the Tech and I deemed it a mechanical issue, not sampling nor software. One day I may open it up and find the spot ... Maybe ...

So, like so many things in "life", I have ignored it and hardly notice it any longer.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2251910
03/25/14 01:09 PM
03/25/14 01:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 579
Spanish living in UK
evamar Offline
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? I can still hear it with headphones (extremely cheap headphones, 15, all being said) in Concert Grand 1, but not as much as with speakers. Maybe it's a combination of both mechanical and sampling?

Anyway... even without this, I would still prefer the Concert Grand 2 voice and I don't really notice it using this voice, with our without headphones, so not really an issue for me...


Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted

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Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2252109
03/25/14 09:32 PM
03/25/14 09:32 PM
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First of all, thanks OP for the pictures. It gave me the confidence to open up the case and sort out the issue I had with the humming transformer.

I do not have any kind of "twang" on either F3 or G4.

However I do notice that for Concert Grand 1, the sampling of some notes sounds different, compared to adjacent ones. In particular:

- C6 has a sharp metallic ring

- A5 (and to a some extent Bb5) sounds dull, almost muted, and lacking bite when played loud

I just donned my headphones, turned off reverb, and went through the whole keyboard and also noticed:

- G2 has a metallic ring / buzz when played loud

- G#3 has a weird bell-like overtone played loud

- G#4 sounds "harsher" than surrounding notes

I suppose every piano has its imperfections. But I kind of agree with evamar that any such imperfections should be detected and ironed out as part of the sampling process. A good piano technician needs to be on hand who can sort out any buzzes or twangs, and the offending notes re-sampled. A piano that will be reproduced thousands of times and has no prospect of adjustment must be held to higher standards!

Concert Grand 2 does not suffer the same idiosyncracies, as it is a different sample set. Rather than 88 different notes, the stretching is obvious to hear, in groups of 4 notes. Try a chromatic descending scale starting at middle C, count in 4 and listen as the tone changes.

The other patches are a very mixed bag, IMO. Studio Grand and Mellow Grand sound pretty good (I think they're based on the 88-note Concert Grand sample). Studio Grand 2 barely sounds like a piano, and Modern Piano has approximately 1 dynamic level. Never mind; 3 good pianos is plenty anyway.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: Kawai CA95 - The Inside Story, With Pictures [Re: McBuster] #2252302
03/26/14 09:07 AM
03/26/14 09:07 AM
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Splash Offline
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Hi again, yesterday I carefully test more keys by using the Light touch setting and actually more keys have a metallic/different sound than others. I can hear too the sound when using headphones at a high volume level.

Maybe Kawai can publish an software upgrade to solve it.

This not happens in Mellow setting and harder to sense in Concert Grand 2.

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