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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2084625
05/18/13 08:01 AM
05/18/13 08:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,058
Conway, AR USA
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by RoyP
On unison settling. I think of unison settling as being when the pitch of the unison falls due to the pitch of the individual strings falling. If you set a single string, and then set the other strings to that, it is possible that the pitch of the first string falls as you tune, because it wasn't set to start with, and then you set the other strings to that. The whole unison ends up being flat. The individual strings have been set lower due to there being a moving target.


This is a seperate phenomena from the Weinrich effect. With the Weinrich effect, the pitches of the individual strings stay where they were, but the pitch of the unison is lower due to the coupled motion of the strings. Is that clear?




Yes, that sounds like a different effect. However, if one's unisons are settling after just being tuned, there are other issues at play.





I believe what Roy describes as "unison settling" has more to do with Newton's third law. The effect I mentioned earlier is different. It proceeds from the premise that the unison is tuned clean and stable. Yet, when each string in the unison is plucked, there is an aurally detectable difference in pitch, albeit ever so slight. A basis for the theory as to the cause was mentioned earlier.

After reading the Doctor's explanation of his theory, I am a bit confused. What Mark is saying seems slightly different, but makes better sense. Look forward to further info on it.



Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2084633
05/18/13 08:30 AM
05/18/13 08:30 AM
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Bob, I believe also that the tuning pin can be introduced in the tonal result. as soon as the tip leaves the tuning pin, that one is free to vibrate. it could be changing the structure of the sound.

(it is in fact)


Last edited by Olek; 05/18/13 08:48 AM.

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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Olek] #2084652
05/18/13 09:08 AM
05/18/13 09:08 AM
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Conway, AR USA
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Originally Posted by Olek
Bob, I believe also that the tuning pin can be introduced in the tonal result. as soon as the tip leaves the tuning pin, that one is free to vibrate. it could be changing the structure of the sound.

(it is in fact)



Thanks, Isaac. Interconnectivity opens up a plethora of possibilities. Will think on that one...


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Olek] #2084699
05/18/13 10:26 AM
05/18/13 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by bkw58



Thanks again, Mark. Normally, I will gladly yield to higher acumen, but on this one I'll go to the mat with you. Tune unison beat-less or clean. Your best effort: action regulated, hammers voiced, fine tuning either aural or ETD. Subsequently, I hear a slight variance in pitch in each string when the three are plucked individually. As to the cause, I do have a theory, but its only that. Apparently, this phenomenon is only scarcely acknowledged and, consequently, doesn't present a problem for anyone. And so it would probably be pointless to pursue an answer. However, if anyone has a viable one, I'm all ears smile


What is your theory , please ?

About that not being a problem for anyone, I sure wish it would.

ABout piano tone , crude translation :

In reality appear between the difference sounds the inharmonity that disturb the partial sounds, the floating in pitch which are felt up to a certain degree absolutely as pleasant, because they stare for a desired stimulation of the ear, apart from that pure and somewhat boring sound of non iH sounds.

It can become critical, however, in the bass area of the piano. Depending of the size and acoustic qualities of the sounding board it is not able to return/transducer the fundamental modes of the deepest tones or only weakly.

Then the correct pitch impression appears to the ear only from the perceived difference of the higher partial sounds. Due to the lnharmonicity this is not only a single frequency, but a mixture of similar tones within a certain frequency bandwidth. High lnharmonicity value in the bass decrease the accuracy of the pitch production what can lead in the extreme case to the complete absence of recognition.


++++

The partial content of a tone depends of the exitation, plucking gives way more partials than when the note is played with a hammer.

It is no surprise that the perceived pitch itself can differ




Thanks, Isaac. I must have missed your edits. If I understand you correctly, I think you and I are describing the same effect.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2084738
05/18/13 11:40 AM
05/18/13 11:40 AM
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Certainly Bob, , in the end it is also seen on an ETD display , as a tew 10ths or cts, and more than that sometimes,

I suggest that the first reason why it is so much unsuspected, is that generally the piano tuners never pluck the strings in they unison.
Also, plucking a string with the 2 others open may give a very differnt pitch that if a felt mute is used to mute them.
SO probably we are fully in the effect Mr Weinreich tried to describe.
I also believe that due to instability of the pitch of piano strings, it may have been difficult at the time of the tests, to have the help from a tuner that knows the effect and how he uses it.
More often it is noticed but considered not important, un unison being 2-3 strings.
Rarely tuners make the analysis of which string is used as a "ballast" (?) to color the strong coupling 2 others. it may be the central one, or any other even if instructions may exists as stated in the above post from 2006, to tune an "open" unison between the first 2 strings, and another open one for the 2 last (a common way to have a nice sparkle I find here)

THe hypothesis is simply that the strings have a natural attirance to that unbalance, and that they will land there anyway after the piano plays a little.
SO better master the process from the start.
ALso noticed is the shape the most naturally obtained when using a stripmute, where the first central string gives the pitch and the 2 others maintain it (by being tuned high) , while providing a strong trunk for the unison (I even see that 2 external coupled string as a "barrier" that will avoid the drift of the central string too much.
Those sort of things are difficult to test and to proove, but whenever you find old tunings with clean unisons check the "shape" it will be that one ("smiley" shape, as say Alfredo)

It happens that, beginning with such a shape I finally wish to have more power for the attack, I then "close" one of the external strings. The perfect 3 strings is unstable, I do not know a real reason (probably because they are all exited in the same orientation, while they cannot physically vibrate all the 3 in the same up-down process - there is an obligation of "phase opposition" but that may relate to the Newton law as well wink

Best regards




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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Chris Storch] #2084777
05/18/13 12:53 PM
05/18/13 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Storch
Gabriel Weireich's response was fascinating. Especially this part:

"...(1) my analysis gives no preference as to direction, i.e. the shift is as likely to be up as down, whereas you say that the “coupled frequency” is always lower than the “uncoupled” one; (2) the shift according to my description is too small to be perceived directly – rather, it shows itself indirectly by affecting the decay rates of the prompt sound and the aftersound...."

and this:

"...I did, however, consult some experienced piano technicians since receiving your message this morning, and their reaction was that they had never heard of it, much less experienced it...."

We appear to be back where we started:
Step 1: Prove that this phenomenon exists.
Step 2: Find a way to control it to produce high-level aural tunings.

Whoever proves that this effect occurs, gets to put their name on it. Weinreich sounds like he's disavowing having HIS name attached to it.

Chris S.



Hi Chris,

Your steps are interesting from a theoretical point of view. However, as a practical consideration, one can go straight to step 2, without the need to prove or disprove this particular theory.

You see, if there is a pitch change, Double String Open Unison (DSOU) tuning will minimize it and preserve a high precision interval, like a pure triple octave for example. (I prefer giving a different name to this technique than just "shimming", which can also identify the process of correcting a unison, and not actually tuning from the beginning with this technique.)

If there is no change, the DSOU technique does no harm, and there are still other benefits, like no need for a strip mute, no string stretching due to strip mute insertion and removal, ease of tuning for birdcage, beat matching for speed, etc, to be had.

I find many tuners tune at very high levels without the need to understand why things are happening; they go straight to your step 2. Their technique can be so natural after years of practice, that the analytical process is happening at a subconscious level. (Read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell.)

My interest in understanding these concepts is so I can teach other people how to tune naturally in a shorter time; I believe an analytical understanding of a process can facilitate natural knowledge faster than just practicing, providing it is not done too much. (Paralysis by analysis) I have had to "let go", at times, of the need for understanding in the past in order to get results sooner. Not easy for an engineer. But in the long run, it helped; the understanding came later. (That would be your step 2, then 1.)

I am curious. Are you a piano technician? If so, do you find you are more analytical or natural in your approach?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2084955
05/18/13 08:52 PM
05/18/13 08:52 PM
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Lets keep in mind that when we pluck a string at a point different from exactly the point where the hammer strikes the string, a different harmonic balance will be created. That pesky seventh partial can be very tricky.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2084963
05/18/13 09:17 PM
05/18/13 09:17 PM
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Plucking creates a different harmonic balance from hitting with a hammer.


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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2085059
05/19/13 04:40 AM
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yes that play a role on the spectra, but the height difference stay audible. pluck the string at different location, the fundamental perceived stay the same.

plucking particularly in high treble, make us hear directly the iH, when compared with the hammer hit pitch.
But when all 3 strings are plucked, it is enough to pluck on the same line more or less.

some ear training is necessary to listen to the tone in an analytic way, that mean not simply chasing for beats.
In the end that is the prompt sound which is shortened or lenghtened . the crash tone of the hammer is coloured when stabilisation is fast enough.

The easiest part to understand, said the beginner tuners, then the hard part is to be able work the string at the wanted level of precision and have it stay in place, and it can take around 2 years with adequate environment and teatching.



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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2085108
05/19/13 07:14 AM
05/19/13 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

I am curious. Are you a piano technician? If so, do you find you are more analytical or natural in your approach?


Yes.

Mark, I can't be sure, but I think this is yet another example of a thread discussion that's gotten derailed.

Best of Luck,
Chris S.


Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Chris Storch] #2085164
05/19/13 10:32 AM
05/19/13 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Storch
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

I am curious. Are you a piano technician? If so, do you find you are more analytical or natural in your approach?


Yes.

Mark, I can't be sure, but I think this is yet another example of a thread discussion that's gotten derailed.

Best of Luck,
Chris S.


If you are a professional, the rules of the board are that you should state your affiliation in a signature to your messages. See the notice to professionals in the Piano area.


Semipro Tech
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: BDB] #2085403
05/19/13 07:54 PM
05/19/13 07:54 PM
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Oops,

My bad. Should be all fixed now.


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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2085552
05/20/13 02:31 AM
05/20/13 02:31 AM
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Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Thank you Mark. This method was a lifesaver for me tuning an older English piano called a Eavestaff mini-piano. This very short piano has the action and strings mounted in the back of the piano, but the double-ended tuning pins go though the pinblock and protrude at the front of the piano below the keybed where they are tuned. It is impossible to manipulate mutes and tune at the same time without physically moving around the piano for every change. Because this piano has only two string for every note from middle C to the top F, the Double Unison Technique worked wonders for the second pass of a pitch raise without having to get up from the sitting on the floor position! (The first pass I just listened through the beating unisons to the target string.)

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 05/20/13 02:35 AM.

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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2085770
05/20/13 12:28 PM
05/20/13 12:28 PM
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Cool. Had you heard about this technique before, or did you just try it out based on my explanation of how to use it?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2085926
05/20/13 04:54 PM
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Mark, I tuned this piano only the week before your post. I had thought of something similar some years ago as a method to set temperament intervals but never pursued it until the necessity of this piano. Your post was coincidental and most timely in that it legitimatise what I did, in a sense, because how I tuned the treble octaves was identical to your description. (This little piano has single strings below middle C so the temperament is set there.)


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: RoyP] #2247043
03/15/14 01:36 PM
03/15/14 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RoyP
James, yes, it is open string tuning. Just a little more open than what you do.

Bob, I think that Mark C is describing the Weinrich effect, which is a fairly well know phenomena. At least I thought that it was. That three strings in unison will produce a lower pitch than each would individually.


Hi Roy,

Yes, I was.

Although after contacting Professor Weinrich he set me straight. After tuning a single string to a specific pitch, and then adding the two other strings to produce a clean and pure unison, there is a phenomenon that occurs, described by Professor Weinrich, which states:

The final pitch of the three stringed unison will:
1) remain the same,
2) go up, or
3) go down.

There is no way to know which it will be.

At first I thought like most people, that it would go down, but then when I tried to demonstrate this to others, sometimes it would go down, but other times it would not change, or would go up, putting a wrench into my hypothesis, and leave others thinking I was a crackpot, and me; scratching my head.

Contacting Professor Weinrich helped me to understand why my demonstrations were failing.

No matter why you think this is happening, many advanced tuners recognize that something is going on here. Some try to predict the drop, and tune their first string slightly sharp. But if the effect results in a rise, the final unison will be even more out.

The only way to eliminate (or reduce) this effect, is to tune two strings first, find the desired pitch of the double string unison, and then bring in the third. The final pitch doesn't change because the double string has already been affected by the Weinrich effect. I find the pitch much more consistent, and the quality of my treble much better than it used to be.

If you are working on producing consistent triple octaves, or consistent pure 12ths in the treble, or any other consistent SBI in the treble, you have to tune with double string unisons. There's no other way, except going over the notes multiple times. The double string unison technique gets the note there precisely, and it stays there, if stability is good of course. It is much faster than constantly tweaking the notes that have drifted. I just did a concert tuning with consistent triple octaves, in 60 minutes.

If you have not reached this level of precision yet, it is not worth the effort.

Please post any questions if you have them.

I spend most of my free time producing free video lessons for beginners. If there is a demand for this level of video lesson, I will make one. Let me know.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247170
03/15/14 06:38 PM
03/15/14 06:38 PM
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you also can have your couple between leftand right string, or something balanced between 2 couples opposed around the center string.

More experiments would be interesting on the predictability of the final pitch, but one may take in account that the pitch of "open unison" (tone wise) stabilize after it have been heard and noticed by the brain, in my opinion.

Mr Weinreich did not have at hand a tuner that could use different "shapes" of unison. Many do not do that consciously, while some use one approach only. One of the most respected tuners here told me "sometime there, sometime elsewhere, no rule" Each string is treated individually and in its relation to others, knowing from the start we cannot force them to stay going all 3 together in the same direction, as this is not natural , as an effect.

When using and ETD and trying to quiet the display it is easy to overpass the good spot just for a better display. while it may be useful with only 2 strings, when a 3d is added the display get really useless in my opinion.

Last edited by Olek; 03/16/14 06:33 AM.

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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247178
03/15/14 07:02 PM
03/15/14 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT


The final pitch of the three stringed unison will:
1) remain the same,
2) go up, or
3) go down.

There is no way to know which it will be.


Uh, ... yea. Some pianos require a little tweaking of the unisons and some octaves, ... some don't. There is a great danger of over-thinking this. For me, the KISS principle applies.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247264
03/15/14 11:24 PM
03/15/14 11:24 PM
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Thanks for the comment David. Are you saying professor Weinrich is over thinking this phenomenon?

This tweaking thing really gets to me. If I spend a lot of time setting pitch and stability and then it drifts, this causes a great deal of frustration for me. With double string unisons, I have greatly alleviated this stress. I feel more like a professional now that the pitch stays where I put it.

As an aside, I put together a list of reasons for open unison tuning and a list of reasons for double string tuning. Open unison had three reasons; better stability, faster because no mute strip needed, and forcing the tuner to tune clean unisons because they will be used to tune other SBI's like 12ths and 22nds.

Double string tuning had 11 reasons. I won't list them because they refer to other techniques I use with the DS method that won't make sense if I post them here.

It just made me understand a bit why more tuners don't use open unisons. But with DS, I think it would be harder to dismiss if people really knew and understood all 11 reasons.



Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247341
03/16/14 06:35 AM
03/16/14 06:35 AM
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When tuning without mutes you are obliged to interfere with the power output. this can be helpful and you are possibly helped not to "close the tone" too much.


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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247368
03/16/14 08:29 AM
03/16/14 08:29 AM
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Hi Olek,

Nice to see you back in action.

To be more understood, certainly by me and perhaps other techs, may I suggest that you define the following terms that you refer to. I feel we often talk about the same things but I feel like you are assuming I know things that perhaps I don't, and then I can't follow your thought process.

So, if you could, please define:

How? Why? is one obliged to "interfere with the power output"? This sentence really paints no picture in my mind.

How can this be helpful? In what way? What is the procedure that is helpful? Tuning with no mutes? Interfering with the power output?

What is closing the tone? How am I helped "not to"? Do I want to "close the tone"? But not too much? Why not?

Are you talking about tuning a unison too pure? With no tone?

Thank you. Sorry for all the questions.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247381
03/16/14 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

Hi Olek,

Nice to see you back in action.

To be more understood, certainly by me and perhaps other techs, may I suggest that you define the following terms that you refer to. I feel we often talk about the same things but I feel like you are assuming I know things that perhaps I don't, and then I can't follow your thought process.

So, if you could, please define:

How? Why? is one obliged to "interfere with the power output"? This sentence really paints no picture in my mind.





Hello Mark, thanks for the welcome,

There I mean that, depending the force I play while tuning, I will tune the tone more or less early (when tuning only 2 strings) the efficiency of the attack is perceived that way, but the top of the spectra behaves differently when focus is given to a full fundamental and when I begin with the top of the spectra (above 2nd partial).

The power provided by the impulse of the hammer/shank is "regulated" more or less soon into a more stable structure, I am aware of that and look for the way the tone "ride the strings" and how quiet it is at that time. When tuning the 3 strings open, the tone is so rich it is easier to listen to coupling at large, how the attack is reinforcing then.
As it is a time/power related process and with 3 strings you are obliged to play quitely, in effect you are dealing with the spectra vs/time,what I feel as "dealing with the power" unless liking having a straight and brutal tone with a lot of energy dissipation immediately , tuning is managing energy with the coupling/Weinreich effect..

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

How can this be helpful? In what way? What is the procedure that is helpful? Tuning with no mutes? Interfering with the power output?


That coupling effect is useful in the sense it allow to listen less long, not chasing after very slow beats, as they join by themselves in time, coupling quieten the "meow" of partials,, I sometime feel I "ride the sustain" then.
Sometime I feel that the note will stay put and that my pin setting is optimal, just with the way the energy behaves between 2 strings. Gives a lot of confidence as you can imagine (there are exceptions wink )

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

What is closing the tone? How am I helped "not to"? Do I want to "close the tone"? But not too much? Why not?


Sometime after having a nice clean top spectra, you decide the music played need more percussive tone and "close" somehow a couple of strings. It is "easily" done with the 3 strings sounding if you focus on what happen to the attack "projection", energy wise (then a quick check on beating if any is causing trouble).

[/quote]
Are you talking about tuning a unison too pure? With no tone?
[/quote]

Yes it happen I hear pianos tuned with mostly attention to fundamental, and nothing is done in regard of the rest, nor with the way the tone loose its thickness.
The "too close" effect is somewhere there , even if when pushed at the max it cannot stay put, the piano will always tend to "open" the tone by itself, but then the final result after one hour playing is unpredictable.
IT may be a problem with tuners that set strong the pin but do not allow the energy to parse nicely in the sustain.

"too open" may arise also, most of the energy goes toward the partials, the attack is thin, in that case. Then it is a tuner taste question.
We miss practical samples and analysis to go farther here.

ANd of course it may be a voicing question, voicing allows you more or less possibilities, but always push you in a precise direction.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

Thank you. Sorry for all the questions.


You are welcome, I am aware all I write is may be not evident. Mostly boring to tuners to discuss "how they do" , it is not necessary to be aware precisely of what we are doing.

ALl the best

Last edited by Olek; 03/16/14 09:22 AM.

Professional of the profession.
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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247732
03/16/14 11:47 PM
03/16/14 11:47 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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I'm thinking spending an afternoon with you would be enlightening. You are right. The essence of what we describe is often lost when speaking of sensitivity. Even recordings don't capture it well.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2248306
03/18/14 09:47 AM
03/18/14 09:47 AM
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Hi Mark

I find that text I translated +- well !
From Stefan Knpfer (seen in "Pianomania", the movie)

Translation with Google translate, but you will certainly get the points.

source : http://www.klavier-online.at/knuepferworkshop5.php

Caveat: unison are not all the same! Physically one would say: Unison is when three strings have the same pitch.
However, this is sonically not optimal! I have found that the three strings of a tone must have a different frequency, so the sound also sounds good.
However, this difference in pitch may be so low that we do not perceive it as upsetting.

Explanation: The sound of an instrument is determined primarily by the vibration behavior of the soundboard. This is about 10 mm thick spruce wood panel should both be pretty stiff to hold the enormous pressure forces that stand. In a concert grand piano these can be expressed at large up to a ton (lateral and vertical).
On the other hand, the soundboard must oscillate thousands of times per second to produce high pitches.

How do we get that with only three strings to vibrate? A hammer head hit on the three strings of a note, so it strike all three in exactly the same time, send the the same impulse.

The vibration of the strings then propagates at the same speed towards the bridge. Since the strings of a tone are the same length, the energy / pulse is thus in exactly the same (thousandths) of seconds move.

This extremely powerful but short pulse prevents the harmonic oscillation of the soundboard because of too much power in too short a time is transmitted: The sound screams briefly right after falling in on itself.

Thats like when you give one knock at the door instead of knocking normally
one would also say: if the strings are however so tuned one another that their vibrations successively hit the web and they release their energy in succession, there is a controlled oscillation of the soundboard, and the tone starts to sound.

That you can not pretend that to a tuner , he needs to hear it!

Demo: Stefan weavers strikes a tone that already faded after about one second, goes away or fades rapidly in the piano.

He does this sound with 3 strings : first two strings to each other, then the 3d.. Result: The sound is incredibly long, he leaves the instrument and circles in space.

Knpfer Stefan proposes to compare a second Tone which, although not sounds bad, but it remains only in the piano.
The sound is not "delivered" in the room as the first.
Chief engineer explained pictorially:
I have three strings of 1 unison tuned so that the left string is the deepest, the average slightly higher and the right is the highest.
The right string first arrives at the bridge and knocks at times. He says: Who is it? The pulse of the middle string meets shortly thereafter on the bridge, which is already going down just before the left string transmits its momentum almost unrestrained on the web. (n.t. : the 2 first strings are balanced may be in phase opposition and that free the bridge for the last string to be more efficiently transfer its energy )
Thus, the left string presses with full force into the door that is practically already open. Thus, the energy over an extended period goes into the bridge and is delivered further into the soundboard. The transient response of the sound is prolonged, the sound is much fuller and more elastic, and the decay is significantly delayed: The sound is beautiful and longer.

I like the mechanical explanation, picturing that well.

Best regards


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2248308
03/18/14 09:58 AM
03/18/14 09:58 AM
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Next :

This is a very important point and perhaps the secret of a good sound.
I'll tell you a secret: It is possible for you to play two notes, one in the treble and the bass, and both tones are the same length! How do you want? It's simple: We have to create it, making the entire soundboard to one to make a membrane. A drum sounds not only where you skin it with the mallet. The entire diaphragm vibrates, giving your energy to the underlying resonance chamber from. In the grand piano, it is so. Unless he is tuned properly, eg by not agreeing the octaves right, I tense up the bridge and the soundboard and the instrument can not produce a homogeneous sound

An example: When we talked about the bridge repairs, have I talked about the danger of making the bridge too high, i.e. to give too much (string) pressure on the soundboard. , when I stretch the octaves too far apart, i.e., high voice, then I'm not doing anything else than that I also too much pressure on the soundboard give. however, when I search for the point where I have the matching harmonics - which are very sensitive in terms of energy - then I get the point where the pressure I have the by the strings are homogeneous with the back pressure from the soundboard. then holds first the mood, and I 2 a sound that also has overtones (round, ringing)!


----------------- I particularly appreciate seeing the acoustical part of the piano as a whole, tuning wise. Energy, efficiency of transfer, lengthened transients, all go hand in hand. The philosophy of Alfredo Capurso in regard to tuning is of that sort, the tuning is considered as a whole, and energy oriented.
We have to "disturb" the speed of the energy transfer to lengthen the tone and make it more lively and rounder.

-------------------------------------
After that, to a question about leading the keys, Stefan say that he do not get why weighting effect is never seen from the tone point of view, dynamically.

He state : when an action is well prepped/regulated, balanced, voiced, it behave as being invisible to the pianist, transparent.

I would add:

The feeling of the hammer at the tip of the finger is at last something that tuners can work with, it is clear for someone with some sensitivity, ears and fingers, that some sort of unison gives an abrupt touch, that eventually will need to be softened by voicing.

When I listen to the very beginning of the tone, that is the part I thicken, then I listen to partials activity, and the job is done. Or I first clear the top of the spectra, then the attack thickens at some point. from both directions it works.

The -0+ shape gives a thicker tone than the +0+ shape, that is more clear, more "calm/sophisticated" . you cannot have both.
the +0+ "smiley" (T.M. A.C.!)is very stable and durable, and I am certain it is a natural balance that can keep its balance easily in time.
The search for the perfect precise pitch, the abuse of screen display, can be a real dead end to some tuners without a deep enough experience in tone production.

BTW voicing cares for 25%of the final tone, say Stefan, it is an evidence (particularly when the tone is modified by regulation so much) but often forgotten. I have seen enough of "Steinway hammers" installed in less than good pianos, where not any part of the Steinway tone was present despite that.

I hope you will find that of some interest.


Best regards


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2248797
03/19/14 09:02 AM
03/19/14 09:02 AM
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
there is a phenomenon that occurs, described by Professor Weinrich, which states:

The final pitch of the three stringed unison will:
1) remain the same,
2) go up, or
3) go down.

There is no way to know which it will be.

At first I thought like most people, that it would go down, but then when I tried to demonstrate this to others, sometimes it would go down, but other times it would not change, or would go up, putting a wrench into my hypothesis, and leave others thinking I was a crackpot, and me; scratching my head.

Contacting Professor Weinrich helped me to understand why my demonstrations were failing.

No matter why you think this is happening, many advanced tuners recognize that something is going on here. Some try to predict the drop, and tune their first string slightly sharp. But if the effect results in a rise, the final unison will be even more out.


Hello Mark, that would be intersting to experiment with differnt unison styles for instance. But my gut feeling, and the one of most tuners probably, is to maintain the pitch output of the first string tuned by tuning the others a little high.
It fight the mechanical motion of the bridge that tilts when tension is added(+added when tuning the next note)

I never have tuned the second string lower than the first, first by caution, now for tone building reasons.

Now I am really unsure we need an extreme stability of pitch during the transients ,just after the attack.

But I believe also that the pitch sensation is induced at that time for the listener. It should be the same for many percussion instruments. Some studies may have been done on that aspect (at the piano ? may be no but at large, probably)

Best regards

PS in effect, the way unison are tuned is changing bridge/soundboard impedance .

The tone of Honky Tonk piano tuning is less aggressive for the ears that it should be, the attack is more than delayed probably.


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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark R.] #2249105
03/19/14 09:22 PM
03/19/14 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
I believe others have described this technique before, describing it as "cracking the unison". (Which makes more sense to me than "double".)


I have to make a distinction between "Cracking the Unison" and "Beat Matching".

For example: tuning an octave with Double String Unisons (DSU).
Tune the DSU clean
Listen to the beats produced at the 4:2 in the octave.
Detune the unison to match (for a 4:2 octave) the beating at the 4:2 partial. (The 2nd partial if tuning the top note of the octave, 4th; if tuning the bottom)
Retune the DSU with the other string.
Now the octave will be right on, or really close.
Now, use the unison cracking technique to fine tune the octave, checking with the 4:2 check note to know which way to crack.

My analogy is golf. Beat Matching is the hit off the tees that puts the ball on the green. Unison Cracking is analogous to the shorter distance putts to get the ball in the hole.

This technique makes DSU the fastest and most accurate open unison technique I've ever used, with only two or three iterations per note.

There are many more advantages to DSU that I have not mentioned. Last time I counted, I found 11.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2249263
03/20/14 04:02 AM
03/20/14 04:02 AM
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if you listen how all partials are matching the best you are hearing an energy raise that will be more or les focused on one, 2 3 partials or more in the basses.

the 2:1, 4:2 or whatever match tests are good to understand the beats theory, then an octave being an unison, we do not need it anymore.

tuning is easily done with 2 mutes, in effect that is the same thing. even with 1 mute it can work if the tone is not too impure.

when you listen to the 4:2 that is the same as listening to the 2nd partial of an unison, the listening mode is similar. but other partials are involved too, th 3d particularly.

octaves are better tuned directly that way, occasional tests show that it is not necessary to use beat comparaison, unless you are trying to make an artificial stretch based on partial matching.

I like the explanation : make the soundboard a whole, so every note played obtain the longest free path thru the membrane.

That is how tuners that are less driven by some theoretical model can produce more pleasing tunings than the strict respect of the pitch/beats progressions using one partial match only.

Best regards

Last edited by Olek; 03/20/14 04:12 AM.

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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2249591
03/20/14 04:28 PM
03/20/14 04:28 PM
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Thanks Olek,

Just to be clear, the Double String Unison technique is a way to get where you want to go faster, with better stability, and eliminate the Weinrich effect. After that, you are free to "open" the tone on the unison, or whatever you decide. Most technicians will not be that critical, IMHO, and will be happy with the result as is.

Best Regards,


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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