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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247368
03/16/14 08:29 AM
03/16/14 08:29 AM
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Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Hi Olek,

Nice to see you back in action.

To be more understood, certainly by me and perhaps other techs, may I suggest that you define the following terms that you refer to. I feel we often talk about the same things but I feel like you are assuming I know things that perhaps I don't, and then I can't follow your thought process.

So, if you could, please define:

How? Why? is one obliged to "interfere with the power output"? This sentence really paints no picture in my mind.

How can this be helpful? In what way? What is the procedure that is helpful? Tuning with no mutes? Interfering with the power output?

What is closing the tone? How am I helped "not to"? Do I want to "close the tone"? But not too much? Why not?

Are you talking about tuning a unison too pure? With no tone?

Thank you. Sorry for all the questions.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247381
03/16/14 09:20 AM
03/16/14 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

Hi Olek,

Nice to see you back in action.

To be more understood, certainly by me and perhaps other techs, may I suggest that you define the following terms that you refer to. I feel we often talk about the same things but I feel like you are assuming I know things that perhaps I don't, and then I can't follow your thought process.

So, if you could, please define:

How? Why? is one obliged to "interfere with the power output"? This sentence really paints no picture in my mind.





Hello Mark, thanks for the welcome,

There I mean that, depending the force I play while tuning, I will tune the tone more or less early (when tuning only 2 strings) the efficiency of the attack is perceived that way, but the top of the spectra behaves differently when focus is given to a full fundamental and when I begin with the top of the spectra (above 2nd partial).

The power provided by the impulse of the hammer/shank is "regulated" more or less soon into a more stable structure, I am aware of that and look for the way the tone "ride the strings" and how quiet it is at that time. When tuning the 3 strings open, the tone is so rich it is easier to listen to coupling at large, how the attack is reinforcing then.
As it is a time/power related process and with 3 strings you are obliged to play quitely, in effect you are dealing with the spectra vs/time,what I feel as "dealing with the power" unless liking having a straight and brutal tone with a lot of energy dissipation immediately , tuning is managing energy with the coupling/Weinreich effect..

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

How can this be helpful? In what way? What is the procedure that is helpful? Tuning with no mutes? Interfering with the power output?


That coupling effect is useful in the sense it allow to listen less long, not chasing after very slow beats, as they join by themselves in time, coupling quieten the "meow" of partials,, I sometime feel I "ride the sustain" then.
Sometime I feel that the note will stay put and that my pin setting is optimal, just with the way the energy behaves between 2 strings. Gives a lot of confidence as you can imagine (there are exceptions wink )

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

What is closing the tone? How am I helped "not to"? Do I want to "close the tone"? But not too much? Why not?


Sometime after having a nice clean top spectra, you decide the music played need more percussive tone and "close" somehow a couple of strings. It is "easily" done with the 3 strings sounding if you focus on what happen to the attack "projection", energy wise (then a quick check on beating if any is causing trouble).

[/quote]
Are you talking about tuning a unison too pure? With no tone?
[/quote]

Yes it happen I hear pianos tuned with mostly attention to fundamental, and nothing is done in regard of the rest, nor with the way the tone loose its thickness.
The "too close" effect is somewhere there , even if when pushed at the max it cannot stay put, the piano will always tend to "open" the tone by itself, but then the final result after one hour playing is unpredictable.
IT may be a problem with tuners that set strong the pin but do not allow the energy to parse nicely in the sustain.

"too open" may arise also, most of the energy goes toward the partials, the attack is thin, in that case. Then it is a tuner taste question.
We miss practical samples and analysis to go farther here.

ANd of course it may be a voicing question, voicing allows you more or less possibilities, but always push you in a precise direction.

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT

Thank you. Sorry for all the questions.


You are welcome, I am aware all I write is may be not evident. Mostly boring to tuners to discuss "how they do" , it is not necessary to be aware precisely of what we are doing.

ALl the best

Last edited by Olek; 03/16/14 09:22 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2247732
03/16/14 11:47 PM
03/16/14 11:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Mark Cerisano  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I'm thinking spending an afternoon with you would be enlightening. You are right. The essence of what we describe is often lost when speaking of sensitivity. Even recordings don't capture it well.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2248306
03/18/14 09:47 AM
03/18/14 09:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Hi Mark

I find that text I translated +- well !
From Stefan Knüpfer (seen in "Pianomania", the movie)

Translation with Google translate, but you will certainly get the points.

source : http://www.klavier-online.at/knuepferworkshop5.php

Caveat: unison are not all the same! Physically one would say: Unison is when three strings have the same pitch.
However, this is sonically not optimal! I have found that the three strings of a tone must have a different frequency, so the sound also sounds good.
However, this difference in pitch may be so low that we do not perceive it as upsetting.

Explanation: The sound of an instrument is determined primarily by the vibration behavior of the soundboard. This is about 10 mm thick spruce wood panel should both be pretty stiff to hold the enormous pressure forces that stand. In a concert grand piano these can be expressed at large up to a ton (lateral and vertical).
On the other hand, the soundboard must oscillate thousands of times per second to produce high pitches.

How do we get that with only three strings to vibrate? A hammer head hit on the three strings of a note, so it strike all three in exactly the same time, send the the same impulse.

The vibration of the strings then propagates at the same speed towards the bridge. Since the strings of a tone are the same length, the energy / pulse is thus in exactly the same (thousandths) of seconds move.

This extremely powerful but short pulse prevents the harmonic oscillation of the soundboard because of too much power in too short a time is transmitted: The sound screams briefly right after falling in on itself.

Thats like when you give one knock at the door instead of knocking normally
one would also say: if the strings are however so tuned one another that their vibrations successively hit the web and they release their energy in succession, there is a controlled oscillation of the soundboard, and the tone starts to sound.

That you can not pretend that to a tuner , he needs to hear it!

Demo: Stefan weavers strikes a tone that already faded after about one second, goes away or fades rapidly in the piano.

He does this sound with 3 strings : first two strings to each other, then the 3d.. Result: The sound is incredibly long, he leaves the instrument and circles in space.

Knüpfer Stefan proposes to compare a second Tone which, although not sounds bad, but it remains only in the piano.
The sound is not "delivered" in the room as the first.
Chief engineer explained pictorially:
I have three strings of 1 unison tuned so that the left string is the deepest, the average slightly higher and the right is the highest.
The right string first arrives at the bridge and knocks at times. He says: Who is it? The pulse of the middle string meets shortly thereafter on the bridge, which is already going down just before the left string transmits its momentum almost unrestrained on the web. (n.t. : the 2 first strings are balanced may be in phase opposition and that free the bridge for the last string to be more efficiently transfer its energy )
Thus, the left string presses with full force into the door that is practically already open. Thus, the energy over an extended period goes into the bridge and is delivered further into the soundboard. The transient response of the sound is prolonged, the sound is much fuller and more elastic, and the decay is significantly delayed: The sound is beautiful and longer.

I like the mechanical explanation, picturing that well.

Best regards


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2248308
03/18/14 09:58 AM
03/18/14 09:58 AM
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France
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Olek Offline
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Next :

This is a very important point and perhaps the secret of a good sound.
I'll tell you a secret: It is possible for you to play two notes, one in the treble and the bass, and both tones are the same length! How do you want? It's simple: We have to create it, making the entire soundboard to one to make a membrane. A drum sounds not only where you skin it with the mallet. The entire diaphragm vibrates, giving your energy to the underlying resonance chamber from. In the grand piano, it is so. Unless he is tuned properly, eg by not agreeing the octaves right, I tense up the bridge and the soundboard and the instrument can not produce a homogeneous sound

An example: When we talked about the bridge repairs, have I talked about the danger of making the bridge too high, i.e. to give too much (string) pressure on the soundboard. , when I stretch the octaves too far apart, i.e., high voice, then I'm not doing anything else than that I also too much pressure on the soundboard give. however, when I search for the point where I have the matching harmonics - which are very sensitive in terms of energy - then I get the point where the pressure I have the by the strings are homogeneous with the back pressure from the soundboard. then holds first the mood, and I 2 a sound that also has overtones (round, ringing)!


----------------- I particularly appreciate seeing the acoustical part of the piano as a whole, tuning wise. Energy, efficiency of transfer, lengthened transients, all go hand in hand. The philosophy of Alfredo Capurso in regard to tuning is of that sort, the tuning is considered as a whole, and energy oriented.
We have to "disturb" the speed of the energy transfer to lengthen the tone and make it more lively and rounder.

-------------------------------------
After that, to a question about leading the keys, Stefan say that he do not get why weighting effect is never seen from the tone point of view, dynamically.

He state : when an action is well prepped/regulated, balanced, voiced, it behave as being invisible to the pianist, transparent.

I would add:

The feeling of the hammer at the tip of the finger is at last something that tuners can work with, it is clear for someone with some sensitivity, ears and fingers, that some sort of unison gives an abrupt touch, that eventually will need to be softened by voicing.

When I listen to the very beginning of the tone, that is the part I thicken, then I listen to partials activity, and the job is done. Or I first clear the top of the spectra, then the attack thickens at some point. from both directions it works.

The -0+ shape gives a thicker tone than the +0+ shape, that is more clear, more "calm/sophisticated" . you cannot have both.
the +0+ "smiley" (T.M. A.C.!)is very stable and durable, and I am certain it is a natural balance that can keep its balance easily in time.
The search for the perfect precise pitch, the abuse of screen display, can be a real dead end to some tuners without a deep enough experience in tone production.

BTW voicing cares for 25%of the final tone, say Stefan, it is an evidence (particularly when the tone is modified by regulation so much) but often forgotten. I have seen enough of "Steinway hammers" installed in less than good pianos, where not any part of the Steinway tone was present despite that.

I hope you will find that of some interest.


Best regards


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2248797
03/19/14 09:02 AM
03/19/14 09:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
there is a phenomenon that occurs, described by Professor Weinrich, which states:

The final pitch of the three stringed unison will:
1) remain the same,
2) go up, or
3) go down.

There is no way to know which it will be.

At first I thought like most people, that it would go down, but then when I tried to demonstrate this to others, sometimes it would go down, but other times it would not change, or would go up, putting a wrench into my hypothesis, and leave others thinking I was a crackpot, and me; scratching my head.

Contacting Professor Weinrich helped me to understand why my demonstrations were failing.

No matter why you think this is happening, many advanced tuners recognize that something is going on here. Some try to predict the drop, and tune their first string slightly sharp. But if the effect results in a rise, the final unison will be even more out.


Hello Mark, that would be intersting to experiment with differnt unison styles for instance. But my gut feeling, and the one of most tuners probably, is to maintain the pitch output of the first string tuned by tuning the others a little high.
It fight the mechanical motion of the bridge that tilts when tension is added(+added when tuning the next note)

I never have tuned the second string lower than the first, first by caution, now for tone building reasons.

Now I am really unsure we need an extreme stability of pitch during the transients ,just after the attack.

But I believe also that the pitch sensation is induced at that time for the listener. It should be the same for many percussion instruments. Some studies may have been done on that aspect (at the piano ? may be no but at large, probably)

Best regards

PS in effect, the way unison are tuned is changing bridge/soundboard impedance .

The tone of Honky Tonk piano tuning is less aggressive for the ears that it should be, the attack is more than delayed probably.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark R.] #2249105
03/19/14 09:22 PM
03/19/14 09:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Mark Cerisano  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
I believe others have described this technique before, describing it as "cracking the unison". (Which makes more sense to me than "double".)


I have to make a distinction between "Cracking the Unison" and "Beat Matching".

For example: tuning an octave with Double String Unisons (DSU).
Tune the DSU clean
Listen to the beats produced at the 4:2 in the octave.
Detune the unison to match (for a 4:2 octave) the beating at the 4:2 partial. (The 2nd partial if tuning the top note of the octave, 4th; if tuning the bottom)
Retune the DSU with the other string.
Now the octave will be right on, or really close.
Now, use the unison cracking technique to fine tune the octave, checking with the 4:2 check note to know which way to crack.

My analogy is golf. Beat Matching is the hit off the tees that puts the ball on the green. Unison Cracking is analogous to the shorter distance putts to get the ball in the hole.

This technique makes DSU the fastest and most accurate open unison technique I've ever used, with only two or three iterations per note.

There are many more advantages to DSU that I have not mentioned. Last time I counted, I found 11.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2249263
03/20/14 04:02 AM
03/20/14 04:02 AM
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Olek Offline
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if you listen how all partials are matching the best you are hearing an energy raise that will be more or les focused on one, 2 3 partials or more in the basses.

the 2:1, 4:2 or whatever match tests are good to understand the beats theory, then an octave being an unison, we do not need it anymore.

tuning is easily done with 2 mutes, in effect that is the same thing. even with 1 mute it can work if the tone is not too impure.

when you listen to the 4:2 that is the same as listening to the 2nd partial of an unison, the listening mode is similar. but other partials are involved too, th 3d particularly.

octaves are better tuned directly that way, occasional tests show that it is not necessary to use beat comparaison, unless you are trying to make an artificial stretch based on partial matching.

I like the explanation : make the soundboard a whole, so every note played obtain the longest free path thru the membrane.

That is how tuners that are less driven by some theoretical model can produce more pleasing tunings than the strict respect of the pitch/beats progressions using one partial match only.

Best regards

Last edited by Olek; 03/20/14 04:12 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Double Unison Tuning Technique... [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2249591
03/20/14 04:28 PM
03/20/14 04:28 PM
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Mark Cerisano Offline OP
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Mark Cerisano  Offline OP
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Thanks Olek,

Just to be clear, the Double String Unison technique is a way to get where you want to go faster, with better stability, and eliminate the Weinrich effect. After that, you are free to "open" the tone on the unison, or whatever you decide. Most technicians will not be that critical, IMHO, and will be happy with the result as is.

Best Regards,


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
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