Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
105 registered members (Beakybird, ando, Bambers, ambrozy, BachToTheFuture, Amedeus, 24 invisible), 1,849 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2245206 - 03/12/14 06:45 AM let's talk about WNG damper trays  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,726
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,726
Am installing another action, and am curious if others that have used the WNG damper system run into some of these changes.

In order to have a vertical damper wire, I am finding that I have to bring the back action a considerable distance proximal, so much so that I am shortening the key ends. This is required in order that they don't hit the adjustment screws on the under levers. The original factory set-up, measured on re-installation, had the damper wires going through the guides at an extreme forward slant, with the back-action tucked way back in the cavity. Either intentional or trying to make up for weird action placement. Thoughts? It appears that the back action was originally indexed from the keys.

Anybody cutting out the rail for monkey clearance?

Determining the pivot height via the two factory jigs gives two different values, with the 'magic' line alignment jig telling me to lower the pivot so far that I wouldn't be able to use hold-down blocks...

When the back action has to move so far proximal to align the wire, the resulting moment arm for the pedal to lift the tray decreases, requiring the hole in the keybed be moved, requiring the back rail to be further relieved. I can make up the leverage elsewhere in the trap work, but from a stress and relative motion standpoint, a short moment arm creates problems.

I have reservations about permanently epoxying the installation in place, and it seems that a small dab of resin is all that is needed to keep the thing in place while the holes are drilled.

I like the precision built into these parts, and though the initial set-up is not the easiest way to get an action together, the promise of long term stability is worth it to me to clamber my way through the learning curve. The ones already in industrial use here are performing flawlessly,may they continue on for many more semesters.

(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#2245261 - 03/12/14 10:04 AM Re: let's talk about WNG damper trays [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,400
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online content
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,400
Seattle, WA USA
I have not installed a W,N&G grand damper system, (and am a great fan of the shank/flange, capstan and back-check), and I never will. It is too large and clunky. Too much weight in the lift tray. I am very disappointed in the extra heavy design aesthetic that W,N&G has allowed to infuse so many elements of their new material technology.

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2245622 - 03/12/14 08:41 PM Re: let's talk about WNG damper trays [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,089
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,089
Old Hangtown California
I helped install one on an SSL
Yes, we did cut out for the monkey. But now that WNG makes a belly rail mount sostenuto retrofit I would have gotten rid of the action mount assembly but that was not the case when I installed the back action.
The biggest problem was mounting the assembly on the bench so as to mimic the position of the belly rail and then
we also needed to fabricate L type brackets for mounting to the belly rail in the correct position.
Did not have any issues with damper wires and their angles and where the spoons intersected the key ends.
I liked the weight of the tray - did not have need of a return spring.
We used threaded rod to connect tray to trap lever and the existing hole.
The geometry was right on the money and the addition of spoons and capstans made regulation relatively fast/easy and very precise.

PTG Member
#2245712 - 03/13/14 12:14 AM Re: let's talk about WNG damper trays [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,523
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Del  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,523
Olympia, Washington
I agree with Ed on this one. I like the WNG wippens and shanks but I'll not be putting in the damper assembly. Even without leads the levers are way too heavy! I've discussed this with Bruce and he tells me they can reduce the weight of these parts some; I hope they do. Other than the weight issue the parts are great.

When compared with the original fixed tab sostenuto system even the replacement Renner/Tokiwa wood damper levers are too heavy. Consequently with the last several (Renner) sets I installed I removed all of the leads from all the flanges and then reversed their order on the rail. That is, the levers with three holes went to the treble and the solid levers (that are intended for the treble) went to the bass. Doing this brings their lift weight down to approximately the same lift weight as the originals. The new ones are still a little heavy but they are pretty close.

On larger pianos I install the springs through the bass just in case but they were adjusted to just barely press against the levers. I figure I can always reach in and strengthen them if necessary. Usually it is not. On smaller pianos I don't install the springs at all. If some additional weight is needed to ensure good damping I install one or two 1/4" lead weights (cut from a roll of lead wire) in the damper heads as far out toward the ends as I can safely place them. (Use a Forstner bit and drill from the bass side stopping just before the bit pops through.)


Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2247208 - 03/15/14 08:37 PM Re: let's talk about WNG damper trays [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,400
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online content
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Online Content
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,400
Seattle, WA USA
Like Del, I do lighten the Tokiwa/Renner Steinway style back action under-levers by removing leads from the treble ones. I don't go a far as Del though. I do think springs on notes 1-40 are needed. I use cut off Steinway repetition springs because I get heavy and light sizes of wire that way.

I also make new end blocks so I can place the damper tray pivot point very close to inline with the under-lever flanges.

The things I don't like about the W,N&G back action is the spoons, capstans and heavy metal lift tray.

I wish they would mold the end of the under-lever where it contacts the key end with a round surface. Something on the order of a curve from a 2 foot radius circle but with a tighter radius at the edge to avoid wearing the end felt. End felts wear rather fast and a design that spread the contact force over more area would reduce the wear rate.

I don't like bending spoons and the capstans are heavy even if they are aluminum. Although when on the under-lever they can take the place of the counterweight. Capstans on the lift tray just add to the inertia of the pedal system and make it tend to produce more noise upon starting and stopping motion. Excess pedal inertia also inhibits rapid damper pedal "fluttering" that some pianist with skilled feet like to use for some musical statements.

Plus regulating the Steinway style back action is not that hard once you get trained. So I say "damper capstans-BEGONE!".

My advice to anyone designing piano components is to seek out lightness and rigidity and place these qualities in as elegantly engineered a form as possible. So much of the industry esthetic is over-built, heavy, bulky and inelegant.

In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.

Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
PianoTeq 6 Out now
Pierce Piano Atlas

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Lounge Lizard EP-4 for $89
by Beakybird. 11/24/17 11:28 AM
NI Production Grand 2 LE
by TonyDIGITAL. 11/24/17 10:44 AM
iloud micro monitors - sales
by TonyDIGITAL. 11/24/17 09:36 AM
Knowing the notes
by johan d. 11/24/17 08:25 AM
Forum Statistics
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |

copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0