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Hello all, I am quite new to playing the piano, or rather experienced, depending on how you look at it. I have had a piano for about five years and I often play on it, but I usually only play this one piece, because it's my son's favourite. See my blog for explanation (with video of me playing): http://onoldage.wordpress.com/2014/03/03/day-62-gould-bach-and-me/I want to learn to play the piano properly, but I also prefer doing it the hard way, learning the basics by skipping them first... Am I doing it completetly wrong, would I have been a much better pianist in all respects if I had done the basics first? Or is it possible to take the hard route if I practice enough? I suppose my question is: can you learn to play the piano like a child would, without books, just by listening? (What does it take?) I hope I am not too naive... Thanks.
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Just some more comments. This piece could work as first piece, it's seems not nearly as hard as that "idiot" that tried to play the Wanderer fantasy as first piece . I don't play this piece but it sounds like pretty straightforward 2-voice counterpoint. Nevertheless, I recommend you to get a teacher as I believe you could have played this much better if you had some guidance these 5 years
Last edited by wouter79; 03/07/14 05:15 PM.
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I want to learn to play the piano properly, but I also prefer doing it the hard way, learning the basics by skipping them first... Am I doing it completetly wrong, would I have been a much better pianist in all respects if I had done the basics first? Yes and Yes. Five Years ? Are you kidding me ? It appears you just like to fool around on the piano instead of actually doing the work (regular guided practice) to learn properly. And that is fine but don't kid yourself. Learning to actually play takes a much more committed effort than that. Even with a committed effort there are no guarantees. For my money, you do not have a chance to become a good player based on what you have accomplished in the last five years. Sorry, to be so harsh ... but I assume you came for the truth. I would be doing you a disservice if I were to encourage you to keep doing what you are doing. It won't work. Good Luck
Don
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Just some more comments. This piece could work as first piece, it's seems not nearly as hard as that "idiot" that tried to play the Wanderer fantasy as first piece . I don't play this piece but it sounds like pretty straightforward 2-voice counterpoint. Nevertheless, I recommend you to get a teacher as I believe you could have played this much better if you had some guidance these 5 years +1 Played it better by now, and have some other pieces, even more from Bach, as part of a repertoire, and with some skills and knowledge to learn more more quickly. It's not clear to me though that you have the desire? It takes a lot of hard work with practice when you just might wonder why you bother.
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Just some more comments. This piece could work as first piece, it's seems not nearly as hard as that "idiot" that tried to play the Wanderer fantasy as first piece . I don't play this piece but it sounds like pretty straightforward 2-voice counterpoint. I cannot think of a less apt word than "straightforward" to describe the Goldberg variations. Don't be deceived. I want to learn to play the piano properly, but I also prefer doing it the hard way, learning the basics by skipping them first... Am I doing it completetly wrong? Indeed.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Just some more comments. This piece could work as first piece, it's seems not nearly as hard as that "idiot" that tried to play the Wanderer fantasy as first piece . I don't play this piece but it sounds like pretty straightforward 2-voice counterpoint. Nevertheless, I recommend you to get a teacher as I believe you could have played this much better if you had some guidance these 5 years +1 Am I allowed to +1 half a post and -1 the other half?
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Hello all, I am quite new to playing the piano, or rather experienced, depending on how you look at it. I have had a piano for about five years and I often play on it, but I usually only play this one piece, because it's my son's favourite. See my blog for explanation (with video of me playing): http://onoldage.wordpress.com/2014/03/03/day-62-gould-bach-and-me/I want to learn to play the piano properly, but I also prefer doing it the hard way, learning the basics by skipping them first... Am I doing it completetly wrong, would I have been a much better pianist in all respects if I had done the basics first? Or is it possible to take the hard route if I practice enough? I suppose my question is: can you learn to play the piano like a child would, without books, just by listening? (What does it take?) I hope I am not too naive... Thanks. Welcome. I think it is beautiful you would, or one would, think to pick up playing an instrument (or any art) because was inspired by some moment in life or a birth of a child or something like that. As that pushes more towards actually having a passion for it, rather than just trying to impress upon others that one plays or does something just to impress (or to be pushed, let say by parents). I picked up piano late in life as well and was moved by Clair de Lune by Debussy (yes i know, I never heard of it till I heard it play in Oceans Eleven movie, Yes. I am in the dark about these things) so I took up piano to learn it. Without any technique. Without any instruction. I took a year to try to learn it haphazardly. Thenk I got a teacher to help me with it and I spent another let say year and a half to try to master it. Even today , I still don't play it as well as I should, but you play your piece much better than how I play Clair de Lune after 3 or 4 years. My point is, I did the most I can to try to do the best at the piece. and unfortunately, this will be my best I will ever get at the piece. But I explored my options to play it well. You can too, just explore the options you have out there to maximize your passion for this piece or any other future piece. You may play this one very well. but the next one may require a little formal instruction. You will need to learn foundational skills. but luckily you can do that while you explore your favorite pieces to try to play. and that is what I do, as I laern some more skill I go back to Clair de lune and try to apply it. good luck
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When someone says they want to learn a piece, they think it's just a matter of learning the notes on the page, the dynamics and articulations, etc. But any one piece is actually played through many, many other pieces. The harder the piece, the more other pieces you have to play to learn the necessary skills to play that piece. When you play the Goldberg Variations, you're not just playing the Goldberg Variations, but all of the Inventions, Fugues and other Baroque pieces you've worked on, as well as those scales you worked on in Classical works. And all those pieces built upon the Little Preludes and other shorter Baroque works you did, etc.
One never starts a sentence with a period, and you don't want to start playing piano with the piece that you should have been working toward these past 5 years, by working on it. Because by now you would have learned so much more music that would actually get you to the point where you can play what you want to play - and do it well.
The way you've been doing it, you won't get there. It hasn't happened in 5 years. It's not just the hard way, it's no way at all, IMO.
Last edited by Morodiene; 03/07/14 07:54 PM.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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the good news is you caught your problem pretty quickly, I played guitar for 40 years and never learned much. Taking up an instrument is a serious activity even if you just want to play for leisure. So No 1 is to make sure you are committed and seek out a tried and true method like Fundamental Keys or Alfred All In One Course. Best of all is to get a teacher but for many I know that's not an option.
One of the most common posts on this forum is some person claiming everything below their favorite piece (usually a fairly advanced work) is dull for them. This astounds me for many reasons but the main one is if someone says they really appreciate a great work how come they can't appreciate the genius of something that's technically much easier to play. I think most of those people are having themselves on equating playing a difficult piece advancing themselves up some imaginary competitive ranking. However I know this isn't you as I read your blog, how the delight in playing two octave notes can give rise to a response. You will find many wonderful pieces in the beginner repertoire including Bach. Don't give up on your aria but spend a while learning easier works and build up all that is required to do it justice.
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I'm going to dispute the "harder work."
I was self-taught / noodled around for over 25 years. Never developed, always got frustrated that I couldn't play relatively simple pieces I wanted, never wanted to "work hard."
I got a teacher three years ago. I've learnt to play wonderful pieces; I can sight read pieces at a harder level than ones I couldn't play at all three years ago; my musicality is much improved. In short, I'm a pianist. All because I take lessons and put in some reasonable practice time - which isn't much more than I did when I was getting nowhere.
Now you tell me which sounds like hard work?!
Last edited by Andy Platt; 03/07/14 10:14 PM.
- Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
- Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44
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When someone says they want to learn a piece, they think it's just a matter of learning the notes on the page, the dynamics and articulations, etc. But any one piece is actually played through many, many other pieces. The harder the piece, the more other pieces you have to play to learn the necessary skills to play that piece. When you play the Goldberg Variations, you're not just playing the Goldberg Variations, but all of the Inventions, Fugues and other Baroque pieces you've worked on, as well as those scales you worked on in Classical works. And all those pieces built upon the Little Preludes and other shorter Baroque works you did, etc.
One never starts a sentence with a period, and you don't want to start playing piano with the piece that you should have been working toward these past 5 years, by working on it. Because by now you would have learned so much more music that would actually get you to the point where you can play what you want to play - and do it well.
The way you've been doing it, you won't get there. It hasn't happened in 5 years. It's not just the hard way, it's no way at all, IMO. This is an excellent post. Welcome to the forums Jostein. As Morodienne said, if this is how far you have gotten in 5 years, you are spinning your wheels and going nowhere. I don't mean to sound harsh, but frankly, your technique is sorely wanting. If you continue to play with that much tension and extra movement, you run the risk of hurting yourself. Also, your reading of the music is incorrect. These are both problems a teacher can correct. If there are barriers to your working with a teacher, then try working with a beginners book. Alfred's seems to be quite popular here. The old adage, "You can't build a building without first setting a strong foundation" applies here. If you continue the way you are going, you sadly won't make much progress. Fumbling around without structure is not the hard work. The real hard work is starting at the beginning and gradually developing your technique and musical understanding. Bach's Goldberg Aria may be short but is not a beginner's piece. I think some beginners think playing the piano just means "pushing the buttons at the right time." There is so much more to making beautiful music. You can learn much of this from a good course of books or better yet, from a good teacher. You must decide if you want to keep noodling around or make real progress and beautiful music by working hard.
Best regards,
Deborah
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Morodiene has said pretty much everything I would have said, but I'd also like to add: I suppose my question is: can you learn to play the piano like a child would, without books, just by listening? (What does it take?) Children don't learn to do anything in a vacuum. Most have parents, and by the age of 5 (in the US), all have teachers. If you put a kid in a sterile environment with absolutely no interaction, and wait 20 years, you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who could function in society. Yes, they might learn to walk on their own -- maybe. But talk? Not with any complexity or sophistication. Read? Absolutely not. Think abstractly? Unlikely. Most importantly -- perform any precision skill to a high degree? Not in a million years; you have a better chance of winning the lottery twice immediately after having been struck by lightning twice.
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Jostein, By now you have probably had your questions answered. If this is still an issue .... would I have been a much better pianist in all respects if I had done the basics first? ...you might have a look and listen to the ABF recital 33 thread that is stickied near the top of this forum. You will find many players with less than 5 years experience in those submissions.
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Jostein, I admire your love of music and your commitment to learn.
I agree with everyone else here, though, that you would benefit more (and more quickly) from directed study through a teacher, which would establish a playing foundation and progressively teach a set of inter-related skills that would help you not only with the piece you love, but with every other piece.
Along the way you would learn that the repertoire for solo piano -- in all genres and at all skill levels -- is vast, beautiful, and unceasingly rewarding. Why limit yourself to one piece, no matter how beautiful it is?
It's about the journey, not the destination, and I think you might love this journey, should you choose to take it.
"Don't let the devil fool you - Here comes a dove; Nothing cures like time and love." -- Laura Nyro
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I want to learn to play the piano properly, but I also prefer doing it the hard way, learning the basics by skipping them first... Am I doing it completetly wrong, would I have been a much better pianist in all respects if I had done the basics first? Or is it possible to take the hard route if I practice enough? Let me switch this up on you to try and elucidate the absurdity of the logic. If you wanted to learn to play golf (a similarly neurophysiologically-complex skill), but had never before swung a club, do you think you would make any headway at all by "skipping the basics" and immediately taking a set of clubs to the 18th hole of a world-class course and just "winging it?" You likely would make very little progress and somewhere around 99% of your time would have been effectively wasted in terms of progressing towards any goals you may have had (simple and subjective fun of course excluded). Substitute golf with the learning of literally any other discipline and you have the same result. The basics aren't optional, but it is up to you as to whether or not you learn them and choose to progress or not.
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Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I realise the absurdity of my logic, yes. One cannot skip the basic, whatever one does -- and the best are often the ones who practice the basics the most, not the ones who tries to be fancy all the time.
I am sorry if I insulted anyone, it was not my intention to troll or insult, I just wanted to share the joy of discovering music, discovering the piano, like a child, without guidance. But that is to learn hardly anything at all -- and even basic guidance can give you more pleasures. I understand that.
I might have exaggerated my piano experience for literary effect. I wanted to show how much my sons means to me. But it doesn't matter. He would probably be even more impressed by me actually playing the piece rather being stuck on the same notes for ages.
I will not take lessons now, I cannot afford it. Hopefully, I will come back here one day and show everyone that I have progressed to the level where I actually can play.
Thank you.
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I don't think that Jostein wasted time in those five years. There is a beautiful bond between a child and parent, and there is the pure and simple joy of playing one note, and another note. So many people are after achievement and perfection, that it often gets lost. In fact, Jostein has something to teach us for anyone who has lost it.
To some degree I agree that we need to get foundations to what we do. But there are many roads leading there. If you play a piece not be note, reveling in each note, and you end up knowing some or all of these notes, then you have learned something. Whatever has been learned will be part of that future foundation.
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Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I realise the absurdity of my logic, yes. One cannot skip the basic, whatever one does -- and the best are often the ones who practice the basics the most, not the ones who tries to be fancy all the time. I see nothing absurd in what you did. I will also argue that you got at basic things in what you did. In fact, some people who play basic pieces are so intent on the final results that they skip the basics that are supposed to be learned through doing that. We are all wired differently. You revel in the sound of a single note or a few notes together. Those are important and good attitudes. Even the fanciest piece comprises basics, so we need to have basic things to get at advanced playing, but we can also discover basic things through the advanced music. I was given a piano and a book of sonatinas to start with and self-teach when I was a kid. This may have been absurd, but there was nothing absurd with what I did with it. Years later when I went back to piano and started to study music, I was surprised what I had picked up. ( hope we haven't lost Jostein).
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