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#2242659 - 03/07/14 01:26 PM Swing and shuffle  
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Dr_Cogitatio Offline
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Dr_Cogitatio  Offline
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Sweden
Hello!
What is the difference between swing and shuffle? smile


Guy Wood - My one and only love
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#2242686 - 03/07/14 02:22 PM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: Dr_Cogitatio]  
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rintincop Offline
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Shuffle is a more strict, more regular, triplet. Swing is is a modified triplet feel, it's between a triplet and an even eighth note division. The accent is also different.

#2242733 - 03/07/14 04:30 PM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: Dr_Cogitatio]  
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KurtZ Offline
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KurtZ  Offline
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The Heart of Screenland
All swing beats are swung but not all swung beats are swing. Confused? read on but it's not really an easy answer. It doesn't help that people interchange the terms freely. I base my answers on 30 years of playing drums in all styles including 2 semesters in the swing band at my High School.

any eight note rhythm where the second note falls after the halfway point but before the last 16th can be said to be swung. Swing is also a style. To a lesser degree so is a shuffle but it's more the name of a rhythm where all the eighth notes are swung.

Try singing these to yourself,

note: All deees are quarter pulses (a foot tap) and are voiced long. Ta's are eights and are voiced short and go in between the foot taps on the last "let" of an underlying triplet pattern

Shuffle:
deeee, ta-deeeee, ta-deeeee, ta-teeeee

Swing: a jazz beat.
deeee-deeee-ta-deeeee, deeeee-ta-deeeee, deeeee-ta-deeeee

If you were here I could show you in 30 seconds.

As I said, nominally all swing and shuffle patterns line up with an underlying triplet pattern. They are just written with eighth notes to de clutter the page. In everyday use there are quite a few ways to shade the swung beat ahead or behind the true triplet. Two really good examples of "swung" beats that aren't on true triplets are boogie woogie and skiffle patterns. You can find good examples of the skiffle influence by listening to Ringo's hi-hats on early Beatle's records. The non-triplet but swung 1/8th was also a hallmark of the French Baroque era where it was called "inegale. Un-like boogie and skiffle, it's longer than the triple instead of shorter. That said, for most jazz and blues, whether it be, shuffle, swing or hard bop, being on the triplet sounds "right". any "nudging" of the swung beat while common, is subtle.

I have a recorded track with the same short piece played in straight, boogie and pure triplets it's informative. Let me see if I can get it up on box.net and linked here. It's rather illustrative.

Kurt







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#2242749 - 03/07/14 05:14 PM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: rintincop]  
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KurtZ Offline
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KurtZ  Offline
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The Heart of Screenland
Originally Posted by rintincop
Shuffle is a more strict, more regular, triplet. Swing is is a modified triplet feel, it's between a triplet and an even eighth note division. The accent is also different.


At their core, a swing beat and a shuffle beat are based on triplets. My swing band teacher used to bang triplets on the podium to keep us lined up. The teacher to whom I went to learn brush and bop drums made me spend the first two weeks playing ting, ting, ta, ting with a light four on the floor with the bass and 2 and 4 on the hat until as he put it, "The triplet was in my DNA." I'm no swing band expert but I will agree that some modern (after the sixties) horn bands do seem to play closer to straight 8's but usually I can hear that the drummer is still swinging. In jazz, the four pulse is stronger and the "let" syllable is played lighter. At quick tempos, I find that seems to pull the "let" closer to a sixteenth but I believe it's a trick of the ear. A rock or R&B shuffle however usually seem to make the "lets" (on all four beats) almost as loud as the quarter note pulse.

Where you're right is that for every drummer, bass player, conductor, piano player, they're going to feel a triplet just ever so slightly differently from the next one but the same can be said of how they'll feel the downbeats as well. Ne'est ce pas?

Not trying to correct you as much as explore the topic away from an explanation for the OP.

Okay?

Kurt


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#2243005 - 03/08/14 05:47 AM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: Dr_Cogitatio]  
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Mark Polishook Offline
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Mark Polishook  Offline
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Listening to something and describing it can be helpful ...

Art Blakey and Whisper Not (swing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUrTTxBz1sw

Art Blakey and Moanin' (shuffle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TdY6iqV2k0


#2243036 - 03/08/14 08:40 AM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: Dr_Cogitatio]  
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dire tonic Offline
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dire tonic  Offline
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Originally Posted by Dr_Cogitatio
Hello!
What is the difference between swing and shuffle? smile


It depends on the vocabulary of local musicians. Where I came from there was no difference, it was just terminology. They both tie in so closely to a triplet-based framework that to claim a difference is to mystify the whole thing. The term 'shuffle' was usually coined to distinguish itself from an 8s feel. Ditto with 'swing' vs 8s - in fact that discussion has been going on in the Joplin recital thread in ABF.


#2243044 - 03/08/14 09:14 AM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: Dr_Cogitatio]  
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Dr_Cogitatio Offline
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Dr_Cogitatio  Offline
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Sweden
Thank you for all the answers! smile


Guy Wood - My one and only love
#2249309 - 03/20/14 05:14 AM Re: Swing and shuffle [Re: Dr_Cogitatio]  
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compianist1 Offline
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compianist1  Offline
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the difference is....

Nah, nevermind. I AGREE.


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