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#2240548 - 03/03/14 06:10 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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minstrelman Offline
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buffalo
hahahahahahaha......you are so funny man.
hey thanks again for all the super generous help, when I was figuring out what to do for computer stuff for making software piano programs work.
you rock, man!!!!!

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#2240550 - 03/03/14 06:17 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]  
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dire tonic Offline
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- no problem - although I think you opted for a different solution...hope it worked out!

#2240555 - 03/03/14 06:44 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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minstrelman Offline
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buffalo
thank you man.
right on. I did opt for a different solution for my HP laptop.
that said, you taught me alot. I am sure that I will be using stuff that I learned from you, on other computers, in the future.

Last edited by minstrelman; 03/03/14 06:44 AM.
#2240649 - 03/03/14 11:38 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: minstrelman]  
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Dan Clark Offline
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This is a very good discussion. I agree with some points and not with others. Regarding "need", I think this should be extended into needs, wants, and constraints.

My constraints are significantly different from many in this forum. The first is age and time. At 67, I'm still a contract software developer and work between 50 and 60 hrs/week. That means the clock is ticking and that I don't have many spare hours in a week to achieve my musical goals.

OTOH, after several decades of hard work, I've reached the position where I can spend a bit more to get what I want. I could squeeze out the cash to buy a decent grand piano. But it does not meet my needs and wants, I can't justify the expense, and most importantly, it won't fit in our house without throwing out a lot of furniture.

For needs and wants, while I gratefully accept other's opinions when trying to figure out my needs and wants, only I can make the final determination. I respect another person's right to their needs and wants, and expect them to return the favor.

Regarding the MP11, it's the right size for me and has a great keyboard. If the MP11 has great piano sound, that's nice but I wouldn't buy it for that. I already have studio monitors, and three virtual pianos and two DAWs running on my music workstation. My setup already produces good quality sound - better than several of the cheaper grands I've tried out.

Ulimately, the key benefit for me is the GF keyboard. The majority opinion seems to be that GF is the best DP keyboard available. If it has a lighter touch, that's better for me because I have arthritus in my hands. So...

Is the MP11 worth $2,800 just for the GF keyboard? For me, I think it is. If there is a less expensive model with the GF keyboard, I'll buy that. Anyone know of one?

Regards,

Dan.

Last edited by Dan Clark; 03/03/14 11:38 AM.
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#2240693 - 03/03/14 01:30 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Clark


Is the MP11 worth $2,800 just for the GF keyboard? For me, I think it is. If there is a less expensive model with the GF keyboard, I'll buy that. Anyone know of one?

Regards,

Dan.
I think it is, too. I don't know of anything out there cheaper with the GF keyboard, but if you can't afford the MP11, definitely go with the VPC1. Or wait until the MP11 has been out and see if anyone sells it used (doubtful :D).


private piano/voice teacher FT

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#2240721 - 03/03/14 02:30 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]  
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Dan Clark


Is the MP11 worth $2,800 just for the GF keyboard? For me, I think it is. If there is a less expensive model with the GF keyboard, I'll buy that. Anyone know of one?

Regards,

Dan.
I think it is, too. I don't know of anything out there cheaper with the GF keyboard, but if you can't afford the MP11, definitely go with the VPC1. Or wait until the MP11 has been out and see if anyone sells it used (doubtful :D).

Morodiene,

I can afford the MP11. To me, it's reasonably priced, small footprint alternative to an acoustic piano with some nice features besides the GF keyboard.

Now I just have to convince my lovely wife that I'm worth the MP11. (I'm making progress on that issue.)

Regards,

Dan.


#2240724 - 03/03/14 02:36 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Clark
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Dan Clark


Is the MP11 worth $2,800 just for the GF keyboard? For me, I think it is. If there is a less expensive model with the GF keyboard, I'll buy that. Anyone know of one?

Regards,

Dan.
I think it is, too. I don't know of anything out there cheaper with the GF keyboard, but if you can't afford the MP11, definitely go with the VPC1. Or wait until the MP11 has been out and see if anyone sells it used (doubtful :D).

Morodiene,

I can afford the MP11. To me, it's reasonably priced, small footprint alternative to an acoustic piano with some nice features besides the GF keyboard.

Now I just have to convince my lovely wife that I'm worth the MP11. (I'm making progress on that issue.)

Regards,

Dan.

Haha, you may have to give her a blank check on some shoes and an outfit in exchange. wink


private piano/voice teacher FT

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#2240925 - 03/03/14 08:16 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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Mike A Offline
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I have a question about the MP11 and the VPC1. How's the mechanical noise of the action itself? Do these models suffer from the same loud "clomping", "thumping" and "clacking" noises that plague almost all DPs? (I have a Yamaha CP33, fine for stage use but I consider it unplayable at home because of the action noise.)

#2240942 - 03/03/14 08:34 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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Vid Offline
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There is still action noise on the VPC1 but I found it was a lot less than what I experienced with my Clavinova. That one was quite audibly 'thumpy' and yes it can be really annoying to people under or around you.

I think its hard to decrease it to nothing without compromising the action. A real piano would sound quite loud too if the sound was turned off.


Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D
#2240946 - 03/03/14 08:44 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]  
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Haha, you may have to give her a blank check on some shoes and an outfit in exchange. wink


My god. If a man said this there would be sexism allegations. It's like saying maybe Dan should show his wife who's boss and just get the damn piano!

Anyway Dan, I hope we have helped affirm your decision to get the MP11. It seems that this is the only piano which meets all of your requirements and you can easily afford it.

Wait.... you're not the OP? I guess there are a lot of people making this same decision. Well, whatever. Clearly you all should get the MP11 cos that's what you really want and you wouldn't even be thinking about it if you couldn't afford it.

#2240958 - 03/03/14 09:12 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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Dan, with regard to small footprint, authentic action, and cost not being a major concern, you could also consider the DU1E3, the NU1, the N1, and the N2


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
#2241084 - 03/04/14 05:04 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]  
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Originally Posted by Dan Clark

Now I just have to convince my lovely wife that I'm worth the MP11. (I'm making progress on that issue.)


Dan:

Amazon link 1

Amazon link 2

wink wink

#2241174 - 03/04/14 09:44 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: phunqe]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by phunqe
Originally Posted by Dan Clark

Now I just have to convince my lovely wife that I'm worth the MP11. (I'm making progress on that issue.)


Dan:

Amazon link 1

Amazon link 2

wink wink

Haha! I was trying to keep it PG-13. Anyone who's been married a while knows this trade-off sort of thing happens all the time. Everyone gets what they want ultimately, so no harm, no foul! laugh


private piano/voice teacher FT

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#2241177 - 03/04/14 09:49 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Mike A]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike A
I have a question about the MP11 and the VPC1. How's the mechanical noise of the action itself? Do these models suffer from the same loud "clomping", "thumping" and "clacking" noises that plague almost all DPs? (I have a Yamaha CP33, fine for stage use but I consider it unplayable at home because of the action noise.)


Of course there is some noise, but you don't hear it over the sound coming out. It is far quieter than most Yamahas and my Roland. It's the percussive nature of the instrument, but I understand it can be excessive in some digitals. If you play it without sound you will hear the noise, for sure. But it was nothing that I could notice having the volume at a normal level. If you play with headphones, anyone in the room will hear the action - as on any DP.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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#2241488 - 03/04/14 08:52 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Morodiene]  
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Dan Clark Offline
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by phunqe
Originally Posted by Dan Clark

Now I just have to convince my lovely wife that I'm worth the MP11. (I'm making progress on that issue.)


Dan:

Amazon link 1

Amazon link 2

wink wink

Haha! I was trying to keep it PG-13. Anyone who's been married a while knows this trade-off sort of thing happens all the time. Everyone gets what they want ultimately, so no harm, no foul! laugh

Linky 2 sounds like a good option, but Linky 1 is surefire winner! smile

#2242143 - 03/06/14 10:32 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]  
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A couple of days ago I spent nearly an hour playing a small K Kawai grand in a practice room and then went straight from that to a CA95 in the same store. I found the CA95 felt too light and easy to play in comparison to the grand. It was a bit of a disappointment. I remember when I had my first lesson there last year on an upright and then trying it afterwards and feeling underwhelmed considering the hype. I also had a feel of the let off on the grand which felt more pronounced compared to the CA95. Maybe that's actually a good thing though.

Something I've noticed from playing a couple of different acoustics is the that the keys have a slightly mushy gloopy feel as I push down (more noticeable when playing softly) and will return as if their coming out of that mush. It feels like I'm pushing down into something. On the CA95 and nearly every other digital I've tried that's not the case. It feels like I'm pressing into an empty space and the key returns in a different way. Slightly faster and more springy.

I went from that store to another and tried out the MP10 and that immediately felt better to me. More weight to the keys and the only digital that felt a little gloopy like the acoustics I'd tried. The keys on the MP10 though felt a bit stiff at the back. Grand Feel at the back is more comfortable to play and in that sense seems more realistic. I also tried a CA15 and though their supposed to have essentially the same action didn't quite feel the same as the MP10. Also briefly tried the Roland FP-80 which felt very hard but again different to a console model supposedly sharing the same action (LX15 which felt not so hard).

Yesterday I played on a Yamaha upright for about 20 mins and again there was that sensation that I'm pushing down into a light mush. It sounded clearly better than anything I'd played recently including the grand.

I might consider going for the MP10 over the 11 if it comes down a lot in price or the VPC1 but I'll want to do a lot more testing before committing and actually try the MP11 as well as others like the RD800 and CP4 when their on display.

Would be nice to hear more on RM3 vs GF compared to acoustics from those who've played on both.


#2242148 - 03/06/14 10:45 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Enthusiast]  
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Originally Posted by Enthusiast


Something I've noticed from playing a couple of different acoustics is the that the keys have a slightly mushy gloopy feel as I push down (more noticeable when playing softly) and will return as if their coming out of that mush. It feels like I'm pushing down into something.


Hmmm, I think what you are feeling here on grands particularly is the effect of a lot of inertia in each key/action/hammer. The overall mass of the key, action and hammer in a grand is far, far more than in any DP. Gravity is also working against the massive and long hammer. This all means that you have to add a considerable amount of force to the key initially to overcome the resultant inertia. Once the whole setup is moving that inertia can be transferred as energy to the string without much additional work on your finger's part. In short, if you mapped finger pressure as a function of time while hitting a note, the graph on an acoustic grand would look far different than on almost all DPs; perhaps the Yamaha N1, etc. might be exceptions.

I really miss this high inertia feel of an acoustic grand when playing DPs.

#2242196 - 03/06/14 12:25 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Enthusiast]  
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Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
Originally Posted by Enthusiast
A couple of days ago I spent nearly an hour playing a small K Kawai grand in a practice room and then went straight from that to a CA95 in the same store. I found the CA95 felt too light and easy to play in comparison to the grand. It was a bit of a disappointment.


One of the lightest pianos I've played in my life was an Steinway D. I don't know if it is related to regulation, or with the big sound you get easily... anyway everyone likes a different weight. (I prefer light actions)

#2242383 - 03/06/14 08:29 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: NormB]  
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Originally Posted by NormB
Originally Posted by Enthusiast


Something I've noticed from playing a couple of different acoustics is the that the keys have a slightly mushy gloopy feel as I push down (more noticeable when playing softly) and will return as if their coming out of that mush. It feels like I'm pushing down into something.


Hmmm, I think what you are feeling here on grands particularly is the effect of a lot of inertia in each key/action/hammer. The overall mass of the key, action and hammer in a grand is far, far more than in any DP. Gravity is also working against the massive and long hammer. This all means that you have to add a considerable amount of force to the key initially to overcome the resultant inertia. Once the whole setup is moving that inertia can be transferred as energy to the string without much additional work on your finger's part. In short, if you mapped finger pressure as a function of time while hitting a note, the graph on an acoustic grand would look far different than on almost all DPs; perhaps the Yamaha N1, etc. might be exceptions.

I really miss this high inertia feel of an acoustic grand when playing DPs.


I found that gloopy mushy effect of the keys also very noticeable on the upright too. I expect it is as you say common to all acoustics. When I had to go from practicing on a Roland HP302 (PHII action) in my piano class to the Yamaha upright there (without a chance to adjust) that was the thing that really threw me off.

Looking at the opinions on here of GF vs RM3/RM3II there seems to be quite a division. The MP10 had something of that feeling of pushing the key into mush which was quite unique from the digitals I've tried. I'll want to look into that more when I get the chance.

I don't know how important the 3rd sensor is that it lacks.

#2242397 - 03/06/14 09:00 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Enthusiast]  
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Originally Posted by Enthusiast

I found that gloopy mushy effect of the keys also very noticeable on the upright too. I expect it is as you say common to all acoustics.

No, it isn't.

My experience is that among Japanese brands of acoustics (i.e. Yamaha and Kawai - more so with Kawai), the feeling of sinking into soft cushion is marked. Much more so than European brands, which feel more 'positive'. Maybe that's the mushy sensation you're referring to, the sense that the key sinks into gloopy cushioning.

As for inertia, manufacturers of the high-tier models strive to reduce it in their key actions. The ones with high inertia are difficult to play fast repeated notes on (momentum = mass x velocity wink ): you can see more lead weights embedded in the keys. Fazioli grands are favoured for their fast, 'light' actions, i.e. their low-inertia actions that allow light-fingered, rapid filigree playing and repeated notes.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2242517 - 03/07/14 06:16 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: NormB]  
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Originally Posted by NormB
Originally Posted by Enthusiast


Something I've noticed from playing a couple of different acoustics is the that the keys have a slightly mushy gloopy feel as I push down (more noticeable when playing softly) and will return as if their coming out of that mush. It feels like I'm pushing down into something.


Hmmm, I think what you are feeling here on grands particularly is the effect of a lot of inertia in each key/action/hammer. The overall mass of the key, action and hammer in a grand is far, far more than in any DP. Gravity is also working against the massive and long hammer. This all means that you have to add a considerable amount of force to the key initially to overcome the resultant inertia. Once the whole setup is moving that inertia can be transferred as energy to the string without much additional work on your finger's part. In short, if you mapped finger pressure as a function of time while hitting a note, the graph on an acoustic grand would look far different than on almost all DPs; perhaps the Yamaha N1, etc. might be exceptions.

I really miss this high inertia feel of an acoustic grand when playing DPs.

Hello
Finally, I can see I am not the only one finding the GF action "too light"
I have a AvantGrand N2, and the inertia you describe is really there and I really like it (for me, the N2 action is even quite light compared to the upright action I take lessons on)
It make you feel the "real" thing behind your key and impact the way you control your playing.
All the AP I have tried behave like that, even the "lighest" one

Now, I am not sure it is mandatory to have such "feeling" to be able to perfectly control your playing.
Perhaps even the opposite: it is more easy to control your playing with an action like the GF action...
But, in my case, I need to practice on something more real/difficult in order to be able to follow my piano course.

Again ,GF action is undoublty a good action, but I don't find it is close to a real piano action..it is good by itself like most of the high end DP action.
Key length is only, only a part of the whole complex mecanism of an AP

Last edited by enzo.sandrolini; 03/07/14 06:26 AM.

Music is a lifestyle
(Happy Yamaha N2 and Roland FP90 owner)
#2242807 - 03/07/14 06:19 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Kawai James]  
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Yes. The GF action has longer keys and a longer pivot point than the RM3II action


So when will we see a VPC-2 based on the GF? laugh

#2242840 - 03/07/14 07:19 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Enthusiast

I found that gloopy mushy effect of the keys also very noticeable on the upright too. I expect it is as you say common to all acoustics.

No, it isn't.

My experience is that among Japanese brands of acoustics (i.e. Yamaha and Kawai - more so with Kawai), the feeling of sinking into soft cushion is marked. Much more so than European brands, which feel more 'positive'. Maybe that's the mushy sensation you're referring to, the sense that the key sinks into gloopy cushioning.

As for inertia, manufacturers of the high-tier models strive to reduce it in their key actions. The ones with high inertia are difficult to play fast repeated notes on (momentum = mass x velocity wink ): you can see more lead weights embedded in the keys. Fazioli grands are favoured for their fast, 'light' actions, i.e. their low-inertia actions that allow light-fingered, rapid filigree playing and repeated notes.


That might explain it then. So far my only experiences with acoustics have been with Kawai and Yamahas and that's influenced my perception of what an acoustic should feel like.

It seems the grade exams here are held on Steinway and Fazioli grands. I'll be looking to try out those when I get a chance.

#2242969 - 03/08/14 12:32 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: doremi]  
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Originally Posted by doremi
Dan, with regard to small footprint, authentic action, and cost not being a major concern, you could also consider the DU1E3, the NU1, the N1, and the N2


DoReMi,

My apologies, I missed your post. These all look like great pianos, so I checked them out. Unfortunately all are too tall and too wide for the space I have available.

You can see my avail space in this post: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...1_Delivered_and_brief_o.html#Post2241953 . Anything wider than 55" or taller than 33" will not fit. frown

Thanks anyway,

Dan.





#2243002 - 03/08/14 05:31 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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doremi Offline
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I saw subsequently the pics in that thread. That recessed space is so tight that it is IMHO a safety hazard heaving 71.5 lbs on a shelf (even if done with 2 people) you canít jump away. Note, that most of the 71.5 lbs is on the backside of the keyboard, furthest away from your body when carrying that 18Ē deep keyboard into that recessed tight space.

I suggested therefore in that thread a rolling table. Prepare the entire setup (including all connections, mount a power bar under the table) outside of that recessed tight space and roll in. Lock the rollers in place.


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
#2243091 - 03/08/14 11:17 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: doremi]  
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Dan Clark Offline
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Originally Posted by doremi
I saw subsequently the pics in that thread. That recessed space is so tight that it is IMHO a safety hazard heaving 71.5 lbs on a shelf (even if done with 2 people) you canít jump away. Note, that most of the 71.5 lbs is on the backside of the keyboard, furthest away from your body when carrying that 18Ē deep keyboard into that recessed tight space.

I suggested therefore in that thread a rolling table. Prepare the entire setup (including all connections, mount a power bar under the table) outside of that recessed tight space and roll in. Lock the rollers in place.

doremi,

Your safety point is well taken and heaving the piano on to a fixed shelf which is only 10" below another shelf would be very difficult and probably dangerous. Where we differ is how to solve the issue.

A wheeled stand is a vialble option. However... AFAIK, there are no portable keyboard stands with wheels. Finding some sort of wheeled work table with the right height, width, and depth would be virtually impossible. Therefore, building a custom table would be the only option for this type of solution.

A custom table that you suggest is doable, but would take up space in that cramped niche. Another issue is how to stabilize laterally. Any option that I can think of would take up valuable knee space and/or get in the way of the mini tower computer. And then there is the issue of stability. At only 18" deep, it has the potential to tip over while you're moving it around. Overall it's a viable solution, but there are issues.

I believe the best option is a sliding shelf mounted to the walls. 16-18", 200Lb drawer sliders mounted to the wall will easily take the weight of the piano and allow easy access for installation and removal. Three advantages of this approach are:

1) It frees up space under the piano and makes access to the computer, cables and power much easier.

2) Making and installing the sliding shelf would be very straight forward.

3) The shelf will be very stable. Once locked down with some clamps, the shelf will not move or flex.

There are plusses and minuses to each approach, but at first blush the sliding shelf option has the most plusses and the least minuses.

Regards,

Dan.

Last edited by Dan Clark; 03/08/14 11:19 AM.
#2243092 - 03/08/14 11:19 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Morodiene  Offline
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Boynton Beach, FL
Ya, I think if you can make the sliding shelf stable enough (and it looks like those sliders will work well), that is the best solution, and relatively easy to put together vs. a table stand on casters.


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#2243106 - 03/08/14 11:49 AM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: Dan Clark]  
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doremi Offline
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doremi  Offline
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You could learn how to build a safe, stable, and space saving rolling table. A rolling table is far superior to a sliding shelf, but good luck whatever you do!


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
#2243961 - 03/09/14 10:21 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
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Joe Garfield Offline
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Joe Garfield  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 469
Los Angeles, CA
There is some good stuff in this thread (now looking at this I wonder if I responded to older posts?) I started playing piano this past winter, after messing with a guitar for 15-20 years. I tried to be 'sensible' and get 'only what I need to learn' and was quickly disappointed. I upgraded, once, then again, and still am not happy. Anyone could learn how to play notes with the first piano I tried. It made sounds and had hammer-action keys. That should be fine for a learner, right?

I read an interesting article somewhere that talked about using hand-me-down instruments for kids, and how that can subconsciously make them feel the instrument is not special, or not worth investing time/money in. Maybe that article was geared to sell instruments, but it has some merit.

Flattery? When I play a nice sounding piano (acoustic or digital), it IS flattering, to me! A sweet tone makes me want to hear more of it. It was the same for guitars. The better the sound and feel, the more inspired I am to play, express, and experiment.

The used old Casio didn't get a ton of play time, the less old Casio got only a little more. The new and upgraded Yamaha got a bit more, but it still didn't get me there. Since I've found the Kawai's at the piano store, I've been there a ton playing them and can't wait to get one in my house. I know I will play and practice more with a piano that feels and sounds right, to me.

So, I learned the hard way what I need to do - which is invest in a piano with the best feel and sound I can afford. I don't want to spend a ton of cash, but the instrument is incredibly important to me, and the feelings I get when I play a quality instrument are priceless, and they last into the rest of my day.

A consideration is MIDI and virtual pianos - if you're OK with playing through a computer, you can concentrate on the best action and not worry so much about tone. I personally want my piano away from the computer so I want a good tone.

Obviously you have to draw the line somewhere. I'll spend what I can afford, but make sure I keep enough money to cover an emergency or two. Unfortunately that limits me to the $2000-ish range I've been looking at, maybe a little more. Fortunately, the MP10 is a killer instrument at $2300 and the MP7 just came out (not sure of the price yet).

I wasn't thrilled about the looks and size of the MP10, but the more I hear it, the more it calls me. Now the MP7 is calling even louder (the XL tone generator sounds so full, rich, and detailed to my ears). I think I'd prefer the richer tone to the wood keys, especially since the RHII is as good as it is. Having to go without a piano for a few weeks could be tough, but I could use the time to rest a hand injury.

Last edited by Joe Garfield; 03/09/14 10:23 PM.
#2260375 - 04/11/14 05:02 PM Re: MP10 or MP11... [Re: pnbgnr8]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 25
Gettonikid Offline
Full Member
Gettonikid  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 25
Canada
Can I have your views on the following:

Mp 10 (floor model) - $2260

vs

Mp 11 (in the box) - $$3610

thanks.

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