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Aucha Offline OP
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Hi Johan,

Yes, For Elise is Beethoven. Is English your second language? That's great!! I only speak English blush. I think you've misinterpreted my sentence. It's probably the brackets () that make it a little confusing. The full sentence is:

"Within 6 – 10 months I was playing For Elise, a well known Mendelssohn piece (forget which one) and others."

It means I played For Elise and a well known Mendelssohn piece and others. I've coloured the , red which means it is part of a list: For Elise and Mendelssohn and others.

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In your original post, you state, "I am not improving technically..."

What measure are you using to gauge your technical improvement?
How much technical improvement were you expecting after 2 weeks?

If you are interested there are thread on the Adult Beginners Forum specifically related to each of the Alfred adult books. Hardly any of us love the pieces; most of us benefit greatly from the series.


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Originally Posted by malkin

If you are interested there are thread on the Adult Beginners Forum specifically related to each of the Alfred adult books. Hardly any of us love the pieces; most of us benefit greatly from the series.

I suggest the threads on effective practice, effective learning and similar.

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Aucha Offline OP
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Originally Posted by malkin
What measure are you using to gauge your technical improvement?


There is no challenge in them at all. I have them all under my fingers, memorised and faster than required speed within half an hour. There are no 'bits' to work on, no bits that need practice.

There can be no technical improvement from that. And as I said, very little sight-reading value because it's 2 mins sight-reading, where I was sight-reading for an hour or more previously and moderately improving. My sight-reading is going backwards, not forwards. I can SEE the difference.

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Aucha Offline OP
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Look, these books and methods are probably GREAT for the absolute beginner, who finds these pieces challanging and needs to practice and learn practice techniques to get their fingers sorted around them. I would have as a child. But for someone who can already play, requiring these pieces to be learned is a waste of time. I KNOW I'm getting nothing from them. I rarely even have stumbles on any parts of them, the odd stumble I play again slowly and it's all good (and the stumbles are always because I've either read it wrong or simply transcribed to the wrong key - never because my fingers got confused.

Teaching should never be a one-size-fits-all. Everyone is different and needs different teaching techniques, particularly if they are at various levels like I am. I need challenge at various levels: beginner level for sight-reading (hopefully to gradually catch that up), and probably intermediate challenge at the playing level. These pieces are close to my sight-reading level, but trying to combine the two levels when they are so polarised is ludicrous. I'm not going to become a concert pianist or do recitals or exams, and I'm probably not going to be a rabid sight-reader as I generally play by ear. There is no reason to halt all learning in order to 'balance' the skills as first priority, as someone suggested, just because 'that's the correct way of teaching'. Particularly as I'm keen to work at my lower level skills to catch them up anyway.

This is why I'm concerned. I need the teaching to challenge me at MY level. There are also assumptions here - assumptions that because I'm a beginner I need to start at exactly the same level as an ABSOLUTE beginner. I am a beginner, but not an ABSOLUTE beginner, who is learning AGBDF and FACE for the first time. That's who these books are designed for. I learned all the basics years ago and used it for years, but apparently I have to "learn" them all again??. I've been through the theory of all three Alfred's books - there was nothing new at all. This is a one-size-fits-all attitude. This is why people quit learning. Reading between the lines, thats why a lot of the self-learners on these forums are self-learning - they've probably gone to a teacher with their practiced Bach piece to be told "Oh, No! To begin learning formally, you'll have to start on the beginners Alfred book and 'learn' every piece, page-by-page, to my satisfaction, so we can ensure that you can sight-read and can play the easy pieces first, and that all your skills are in perfect balance, to my satisfaction." And I've read here that people who move teachers also have start all over again, the same deal, to satisfy the new teacher. Really??

Remember I'm paying for lessons. They're expensive and I expect to get value for money, EVERY lesson - not pay for many lessons that I don't need, waiting for the day when the repertoire catches up to me and I actually get some value. I'm paying for a product. Financially, it's like having to continuely buy T-Shirts you don't want or need, until you're allowed to buy the ones on the top shelf that you do want.

There many skills that go into learning piano and sight-reading is just one. I shouldn't have to spend years not improving a single other aspect of my playing just because my sight-reading is not advanced. We don't do that in our workplaces either. We don't decide that someone is totally unemployable, simply because there is one aspect of their work that isn't up to scratch. For example, we don't say to a potential manager, "We can't employ you because you need to type fluently to send emails" - that's a minor part of his role and he'll probably get faster at his two fingered typing, besides he's a people person and manages people brilliantly. He can still perform and mature in the managing aspect of his new role while learning to type. But that's what you're saying to me. I can't work on any type of technical skill until my sight-reading catches up. That's ludicrous.

Children learning to read are not held back because their spelling is not up to their reading level. The two skills are related, but actually differ in teaching technique. A child who can't spell well learns spelling at their particular level (hopefully at a greater speed to catch them up), and they learn to read at their reading level. The two levels might be different. This was me as a child - my reading age was far beyond my actual age, but my spelling was age appropriate, mediocre smile. I didn't stop reading until my spelling caught up to my reading age, but as you can see, it did.

And if I used this pedagogy to teach children in the classroom, I'd have half the class swinging from the windows in sheer bordom and the other half doodling with vacant stares, and their behaviour would be uncontrollable (and I'd be out of a job!).

If this is piano teaching pedagogy, as it has been for hundreds of years, it needs to catch up to recent research on how people learn.

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Hi Aucha,
You haven't come across as an egomaniac, but you are in a forum full of teachers and it does push teachers' buttons when students think they know better than teachers. However, often students do in fact know better than their teachers esp. if the teacher is not a good fit.
I think it's a very good plan to talk with your teacher frankly about both of your expectations.
I agree that it's silly to self-learn the material that's most important to you, but then, you could just bring in pieces you'd like to work on and ask your teacher about them. Maybe something more interesting that will make use of those new scales?
If you are bored by the minimal sight reading you could just go right back to the previous hour a day regimen and work ahead in the books your teacher is assigning. Then you'd get through them sooner, your sight reading would improve massively, you'd get to move on to other stuff, everybody wins.
BTW I teach Suzuki students, who always have a gap between reading and ear/playing ability. At the stage when I start pushing reading, it's not unusual for them to have Clementi sonatinas and something like CPE Bach/Solfeggietto as working pieces, while learning a piece by reading every week from Czerny Op. 139, which starts out super-simple. Maybe having a mix of easy pieces for reading and harder pieces for repertoire would be good for you too?


Heather Reichgott, piano

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Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée
William Grant Still - Three Visions
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Aucha Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by malkin

If you are interested there are thread on the Adult Beginners Forum specifically related to each of the Alfred adult books. Hardly any of us love the pieces; most of us benefit greatly from the series.

I suggest the threads on effective practice, effective learning and similar.


I'm sure there are endless practice techniques and I've probably only scratched the surface, but the ones I attempted to describe in my original post are very similar to the Practiceopedia book I found on another thread, with this link:

Inside Music

My previous teacher taught me these all these techniques (am many more): the 'chunking', 'bridging', working on difficult bits first, 'blinkers' and not-'autopiloting'(or deliberate practice), 'chaining', 'closure', and I remember him talking about the 'practice traps' bad practicing etc. He didn't use those terms, but the techniques are exactly the same - read my first post. Although he never colour-coded, but he certainly scribbled all over my music. And he taught me all these as transferrable skills for future pieces.

So I already have some understanding of practice techniques, although I'm sure techniques are endless and ongoing. But I'm also sure the techniques I have now are more than adequate for the basic pieces I'm having to get through right now. As I said, I have encountered no finger problems whatsoever, which I should have if my practice techniques were problematic. I'm sure I'll find more techniques if I have some decent repertoire to use them on...

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Aucha Offline OP
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
If you are bored by the minimal sight reading you could just go right back to the previous hour a day regimen and work ahead in the books your teacher is assigning. Then you'd get through them sooner, your sight reading would improve massively, you'd get to move on to other stuff, everybody wins.

This is a brilliant idea! Why didn't I think of that? Silly brain - I'll definitely do this!! grin

Originally Posted by hreichgott
BTW I teach Suzuki students, who always have a gap between reading and ear/playing ability. At the stage when I start pushing reading, it's not unusual for them to have Clementi sonatinas and something like CPE Bach/Solfeggietto as working pieces, while learning a piece by reading every week from Czerny Op. 139, which starts out super-simple. Maybe having a mix of easy pieces for reading and harder pieces for repertoire would be good for you too?


This sounds very much how I'd love to be taught. It sounds like your students learn at their own level. Perhaps I should investigate Suzuki? I really want to learn to sight-read and enjoy the challenge, just not to the exclusion of everything else.

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