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Hello ! I’m new to this forum and a beginner piano player, essentially. Sorry about the long-windedness, but I need to relate the whole story in order to get accurate feedback. And I'm asking in this forum as I'd like replies from teachers.

I’ve just started piano lessons formally. I’ve kind of mostly self-taught – on and off. I was shown middle C on music and keyboard as a 6 year old child and worked out how the notes worked from there, similar with chords – worked out the ‘patterns’ from knowing C, F and G (I’m sure there’s nothing unusual in this, but I self-taught initially). I taught myself to play the organ (I preferred piano, but my mother preferred organ), teaching myself “Never Ending Story”, “Fame” and other such songs from sheet music with no real difficulty as a kid off by ear (I could and did play them FAR faster than they were meant to be played, although I was painfully slow at reading the notes). And I could hear songs on the radio and easily play a simple version on the organ. I then had lessons about the age of 9 or 10, but was forced to go back to playing nursery rhymes by an impatient teacher. I was horribly de-motivated by that and became so frustrated that I quit and didn’t touch it for several decades – although I could still remember how to play the songs I had taught myself into my twenties.

At 35 I decided to learn piano (the instrument I had wished to play as a child) and had my friend (who was a conservatorium trained piano teacher) teach me. He taught me how to play with minimal tension (I also sing, but unfortunately with a *great deal* of tension), “Don’t play with your fingers – play with your arms”, he constantly told me. He would look for bone movement on the back of my hand and teach me to play with such gentleness that the bones on the back of my hands hardly moved (the weight of my fingers and arms are what ‘strikes’ the notes, not an actual finger muscle strike, he would say), and to think of music as lots of hand positions, rather than individual notes, and to use my hands and arms in circular motions to move around the keys (which apparently also enhances musicality in the playing). There is probably a LOT more I’ve forgotten (8 or 9 years ago). This is all difficult to explain (and my new teacher found my explanations of this odd and strange and at one stage wanted me to play waggling my fingers only, which is worrisome because just a few seconds of experimentation and I could feel it in my wrist), but as a result I play easily and fast with almost no tension now. And he taught me how to deliberately practice in muscle memory to avoid errors (although, impatient, I probably don’t do his wonderful teaching justice with this – working on it), and learning techniques such as ‘start learning fast bits from the end, not the beginning, so that you learn always to aim towards the end of the fast bit’, and ‘fast bits need to be practiced fast – get finger placement memory and then practice them at the correct speed, gradually adding bits end to beginning’, and how to use this strategy to fix mistakes. Within 6 – 10 months I was playing For Elise, a well known Mendelssohn piece (forget which one) and others. He didn’t teach from any book set, but chose a mishmash of pieces from his extensive collections, so I played quite a variety – he said I should play as wide a range as possible. He constantly taught musicianship while he was teaching (much of which went over my head, but much also sunk in – although forgotten now), he broke the music down for me, chord progressions, temporary key changes, saying “These bars have a G#m7 dim feel” etc (example), demonstrating slowly through pieces he was giving me to play. And he constantly and lengthily monologued about his favourite composers and pianists . He also introduced me to a book called “The Inner Game of Music”, which I’m re-reading. But entering the second half of a Uni degree at the time meant that I had little time to practice and very little money, and I stopped learning.

Much of this might appear odd, but the result was that, as a complete beginner, I could play stuff that was probably far beyond an absolute beginner (although I had an elderly friend he was teaching at the same time, who after 6 months was still playing fairly easy beginner pieces. He taught her the same techniques, but she was a rather challenging student ). It was as though he overestimated what I was capable of and got me there anyway, relatively effortlessly.

Now I’m learning again, but had to find a new teacher (as sadly, he is no longer able to teach). And I have spent several months prior to this getting some of that technique back by myself, succeeding on the most part – I can play fast and without tension, again. My new teacher, also a conservatorium trained teacher with lots of letters after her name etc, has introduced me to scales (I’d never learned those previously, as he’d said I could learn them anytime easily and there were scales and stuff in the pieces I played – my new teacher was shocked! Googling, I’ve discovered that scales appear to be universally seen as essential). I’ve just had my second lesson. In the first lesson she taught me correct fingering for scales and asked me to practice up Maj C, Maj F, Maj G, Maj A and Maj D, which I have. I can play them easily at 140 bpm (just started using a metronome – going to have to work on my lack of ‘a tempo’), easily and continuously without error (4/4 in quavers), and at about 160 I start to feel the speed quite challenging (mostly in the left hand) and start to have to work at it, occasionally stumbling (at home, anyway – I get nervous and stuff things up in front of my teacher, darn it!). It’s probably not that fast in the grand scheme of things, but probably not bad for two weeks. I kind of got bored and I’m also now experimenting with minor keys and chromatic scales too. I’ve also been trying to learn to sight-read – slowly but I’m improving – I can now sight-read simple pieces, eg the first Alfred’s book. As my first teacher suggested, scales are apparently easy and fast to learn (although there seems to be a lot more of them then I thought there would be ). I didn’t get a new set of scales the second lesson as it took the whole lesson to go through the first Alfred’s lesson book and theory book, the task set in the first lesson.

I’m just wondering though, because she’s taking me back to the very beginning: note recognition, hand positions, very simple pieces (I did play simple pieces with my first teacher too, but not for long and they were used to teach me the above relaxed hand movements – then it was on to more interesting pieces). I’m becoming frustrated. How long will I be playing this boring easy stuff (it’s not the childishness of the pieces, but the lack of any type of skill required to play them that I find frustrating). I don’t mind doing these easy pieces in order to learn to sight-read (in fact, I’m very happy to do that – I really want to be able to sight-read), however, I don’t want to just be playing only this stuff for years on end until my sight-reading capability catches up with my technical ability, my technical ability deteriorates, or I die of old age. The problem is I’m not improving technically and my sight-reading isn’t improving because I’m now just playing these boring pieces over and over to get them learned and finished, so that I can move on. There’s no point in stagnation, and it removes my entire joy of playing, because learning how to play the challenging technical stuff, feeling and listening to a beautiful piece under my fingers with my eyes shut (I do that a lot!), and the sheer joy of being able to play something that I previously found difficult are the things I love about playing piano – and all three of these things are non-existent in the easy beginner stuff. I’ve just finished the first of three Alfred’s books this second lesson (thank goodness!) and am now starting the second book.
My teacher has a is highly qualified and is probably a fabulous teacher, and she is a lovely person (she tells me she thinks I’m talented, but it’s really only the previous excellent teaching). But I’m wondering how long I’m prepared to be frustrated. For a month of two perhaps, but not for the many years it might take before I get to play stuff that can challenge me musically and technically. I’m working on my own with pieces that are a little more challenging, but if that’s how it’s going to be ongoing, then I’m only really learning sight-reading (which I’m not really doing much of now because I’m trying to get rid of these boring pieces and I was already slowly learning on my own) and nothing else from my new teacher – I’m still really teaching myself (and I’m not as fast a teacher as my previous piano teacher who constantly shocked me with the pieces he put in front of me ).

My new teacher appears to be possibly a highly conventional this-is the-best-and-only-method teacher, while my previous one was perhaps eccentric, but tailored his teaching to me. Is she taking me back there because there is a reason for me as a learner (and if so, what reasons – I haven’t learned anything new theory-wise either – I know up to basic chord theory, Major, minor, 7th, dim/aug), or is she simply taking me back there because that’s the way she’s always taught and does not alter her teaching techniques to adjust to her students’ abilities or personalities? Is it a fact that regardless of skill, all people learning formally for the first time with a teacher MUST start from the very beginning? Or am I just a little impatient? Obviously there are some very different schools and methods of teaching here with very different emphasis (my first teacher did have at least several students that he took through to AMEB grade 8, I don’t know about my current teacher – she probably has too). Is it just that my first teacher, who I believe to have taught me wonderful technique, was simply wrong and eccentric and this is the ONLY normal way?

I have nothing other than the above to compare my experiences to, and as a beginner I’m not in a position to really see all the pros and cons. Could I possibly have some feedback on this? Thanks in advance .

PS: I’d prefer not to have responses embroiled in teacher or method bashing, if possible. People generally do their best, whatever that is, and I’d not like to see either method devalued, just clarified. I’m hoping for information, rather than point scoring.

I hope you don't mind that I've summarized the main parts of your post:

SUMMARY OF POST

As a child you had a few lessons, and then went on your own, where your ear developed strongly so that you could grasp music by ear. Then you had two teachers as an adult. The first concentrated mostly on your technique and he stressed that playing is done with your whole arm (and body), not just the fingers. The second teacher added fingers in a way that improved things as you say. This teacher also taught you things of musicianship as you worked on pieces, and these pieces became advanced - you could play them because of how you were taught.

After a break you now have a third teacher. This teacher is using Alfred, both music and theory, and you're getting scales for the first time. You've mentioned sight reading several times.
---------------------------------------------------------
THOUGHTS

Your account is missing your present teacher's assessment of where you are, and goals and plans for you. The only assessment I saw was of your past teachers - that you were not given scales (quite a few teachers do let pieces give the experience of scales). But nothing about you. Did you get such feedback, and were any goals discussed? Also, have you talked about how you feel and maybe your own goals with your teacher?

It is likely that your reading is quite weak, given your strong ear. None of the previous teachers seemed to address that. Is your teacher stressing it, or is that coming from you? You may want to get strategies beyond just going through simple music. You mentioned note names in the beginner Alfred book. How are you with written notation? If you see G on the staff, do you instantly recognize it as key x on the piano = G?

I was struck by how often you said that you could not remember things that the last teacher taught you in terms of musicianship. I'm thinking that your teacher mentioned points of musicianship and theory as you worked on the pieces, and you absorbed them while aiming at the music. It's a passive knowledge of sorts. Maybe now you need to learn these things in a more organized way consciously - the fact that it was in the context of music first is a plus imho. Does your present teacher know of this background? (But if a thing doesn't come back, it wasn't fully learned in the first place).

If you haven't gotten feedback from this teacher, you should probably discuss it with him/her. Since you are used to being given things to work toward (how to use your hands etc.) rather than just being assigned pieces, you might ask your teacher for specific things to aim for as you practice and study. S/he may not know you're willing to do that - and this would also give you a greater feeling of depth to your studies. (I hope it's not just a case of going through the routine of the Alfred book and scales).

Just a suggestion.

There are very few people who will read a post that long - possibly the number is zero.

Proofread, edit, distill your question into a concise form and you have a chance.

You have to, or otherwise you will be not balance.

There has to be more to it than just that, however. In what's being described, it can't go anywhere. And does it start with sight reading, or with learning to read, match notes to piano keys and to names, intervals etc?

You've only had two lessons with this new teacher. You could be just experiencing stress with starting with someone new. Give this teacher a chance to figure you out. I'd say four months. Then re-evaluate.

Absolutely true, Tim!

Aucha,

I did read your whole post.

As other posters have mentioned, you've only had 2 lessons with your new teacher. So it's early to stress out about what she'll be asking you to work on in the future.

As Keystring mentioned, we don't know what your teacher's assessment is of your needs. It may be too early for her to know.

But you seem to be assuming that she has you doing basics because she's an inflexible teacher who doesn't know how to start at any place other than the beginning.

Aucha, I don't want to hurt your feelings. You may very well be an accomplished, talented pianist. But you have to realize that here on the PW forums we do see, from time to time, people who are legends in their own minds.

To be fair to your new teacher, and to yourself, I'd ask her what she thinks the weaknesses in your current skill set are. We all have them, and in a few more lessons she should be able to tell you what yours are.

If she mostly teaches children, she may not be used to explaining at every step why she's having you work on particular kinds of things.

I think adult students need to understand the thinking behind a teacher's method; she may just need you to ask her.

Thank you for your replies :-).


I understand music, dots on page very well (I have a classical singing background to AMEB Grade 7). I instantly recognise the notes, but I'm just slow at sight-reading. I can and did sight-read the first Alfred's book. The second book I sight-read too, but not at speed (most of the first pieces are Allegro). But sight-reading is once. I'm having to practice these meaningless pieces, 15 of them to Allegro speed (perhaps a half hour each), when they aren't challenging to me at all, and the sight-reading value is gone after a couple play-throughs (I've memorised most of the piece by then).


It was nine years ago, and a lot of water under the brigde since (a University Degree, life changes etc). And I'm remembering a lot, but I'm sure there's a lot I've forgotten.


I was wondering if this was the case, and it is more organised. The problem is that I haven't learned anything remotely new yet. I'm not really sight-reading much and there is no technical challenge in enless little pieces that I have completely down at allegro speed within half an hour (probably less). So the question is, is this a more proficient way of learning?


You're right. I should ask her for more challenging pieces. I'm happy to rumble though these unchallenging pieces to improve sight-reading, but I certainly don't want that to be ongoing as a sole sort of playing. How long before these 'sight-reading' pieces turn into the stuff I'm technically able to play? If learning to sight-read means that I don't play stuff I'm technically able to play for many years until it catches up, the price is far too high.


This is what I'm worried about.

What do you mean by not balance? Do you simply mean that my sight-reading is not balanced with my playing ability?

Yes. If you unwilling to play easy stuff until your sight-reading ability catch up with your technical ability, then you are unbalance.

Depending on whether you're male or female, your singing experience will involve either the treble clef or the bass clef. I've also found that reading is a different activity on every instrument. You want to create a connection from notation to piano keys, and this connection will be different than the one you have for singing. Find out (maybe together with your teacher) how best to approach sight reading. The way you're doing it now as you described it is ineffective and wastes your time and your teacher's.

I disagree. Consult with your teacher, who is the expert guiding you, by finding out what her goals are for you, her observations, what the best way of working toward those goals will be for you. Think about what your own goals are so that you can communicate them, listen to what she has to say about that including how to get there, and be prepared to possibly change your thinking.... that is - you'll have a better idea if there actually IS a plan as a starting point - rather than totally guessing.

And as others have said - give it a chance. 2 weeks is nothing.

That's a good point. Perhaps she's giving me this stuff as a way of working that out? But there's very little skill in these pieces that could suggest much. Happy Birthday, for example?


Definitely not assuming. But I was wondering.


I'm not accomplished, nor particularly talented (I did mention that I thought I played well because of teaching, not talent). I also mentioned that I was a beginner, several times. I was trying to paint a picture of the discrepancy between my sight-reading (beginner level) and my skill which is probably more intermediate (I'm guessing).


You're right. I need to have this conversation. Ask her where she expects to take me after this Alfred book. Perhaps explain that I do need challenge, not just sight-reading.


What I really want to know is how do/should teachers teach someone like me, who don't sight-read well, but can play fairly well? There must be many more students like myself. Is it just a case of tough luck? No more challenge until you can sight-read at the same level you can play? I was playing Lizt and Mendollsohn nine years ago. That's a very long time (many years) on highly unmotivating material just for sight-reading reasons. If that's the case, I'm better off not learning to sight-read. Perhaps it's too late to learn to sight-read when you can already play, because nobody wants to play Happy Birthday, when they can play much more interesting stuff. I just thought I should be challenged at the various levels I'm at. I'm a qualified school teacher and I would never teach expect a child to read Dick and Dora picture books when they can read Tolkein, just because their age suggests that.

When you are remediating any weak area, then your concentration must go into that area. So the actual music you work on must be simple, or your focus will be split. You cannot put the kind of concentration into the task, it's that simple. I've undergone remediation myself, and am still in the process. In fact, by coincidence I have "Happy Birthday" on my piano - I can play much more sophisticated music but this one does the trick.

What if your student was reciting memorized Tolkien? Have you ever worked one-on-one with students having problems. I had a grade 8 student diagnosed with LD, who tested at grade 1 in reading with me. We worked on timing - cutting long sentences into small phrases (the source of her problems) - within a few months she was reading at grade 8. But she had to work on specific, simplistic things. Mother was the problem, because mother wanted things to be difficult and hard, otherwise it "wasn't learning".

Any music teacher will tell you that transfer students with uneven backgrounds are the biggest challenge. How do you:
- find out what the student knows and doesn't know
- address the student's weaknesses
- get the student to cooperate
- not get the student to quit from being demoralized at being "demoted" (sound familiar?)


There is no "should". Even if someone here has a good methodology, your teacher is unique, and you should not expect your teacher to follow someone else's approach. Discuss this with your teacher.

I'm not a teacher, merely an adult piano student.

But, my advise is twofold:

1. Definitely have a discussion with your teacher about all the things you're asking here. Like, how long will you be learning this too-easy-technically material, why is she starting you with Alfred's instead of the something else, assuming you practice hard, what comes after Alfred's? And many more.

2. Find other music you want to play and learn it on your own. Go browse a music store (web or B&M). Find things that look or sound interesting, get a copy and try to figure it out on your own. And when you find something that you don't understand, go ask about it in the ABF or bring the music to your lesson and ask your teacher about those trouble spots.


Good luck!

As has been suggested by several people here, I'll give it a couple months - I've paid in advance for a term regardless.


I want this to happen, and I hope this is why I'm going through this. I just hope this is exactly what the stagnation period is about. This is kind of what I was hoping to be told here, I guess.



Definitely cooperating - she actually seemed rather surprised that I'd completed the homework task.


Apparently, I've come across as some type of egomaniac. I'm a beginner. It's not the "demoted" thing (I'm happy, more than happy, to play this stuff to learn to sight-read, which I can essentially learn without help because I can read the notation - it's just reading faster that I'm working on), it's the fact that I'm not learning anything from the actual lessons, but paying for lessons (and I'm not rich), and the fact that I'm spending time doing homework that isn't teaching me anything, instead of progressing. The only instruction I've learned at all is scales fingering - I haven't received any insights on playing yet (except one brief instruction regarding not sitting tall on the piano stool). I was actually progressing much faster, both technically and sight-reading wise, on my own.

I will have a conversation with her regarding where she intends to take me, my weaknesses, what she thinks I need to learn (other than sight-reading) in order to catch up with my playing. If I get to the end of the term and it looks like continuing like this, as a standard format for all students, I will look for another teacher - not from being demoted, but in the interests of moving forwards rather than backwards, i.e. not learning anything, but doing what in the school teaching profession is called "busy work" - which keeps the kids busy, but is not really learning, eg photocopied sheets to fill in. I was actually progressing faster in sight-reading on my own, because I was doing an hour a day (now I'm doing 2 mins - the time it takes to learn one of these pieces by heart).

The thing is that I've been through this before with singing teachers, who didn't teach me anything - just provided repertoire and listened to scales and songs for years and said "That's nice", but didn't really help me with actual instruction. I basically taught myself, but I didn't realise for years that this was ineffective teaching (I do now!). I'm hoping to avoid that.

I do appreciate your replies and help . I'll talk to her about her plans and wait and see.

Hi tickler

I definitely intend to do both of these things. I'll have a chat with her next lesson, and find out her plans for me and her thoughts about what I need to learn. I like her - she's a lovely person, and if I can continue to learn through her, I will.

I learn stuff on my own now, but if I have to continue to do this on my own, there's no point in paying a teacher, and you might find me in the self-learner section (the thread I found via Google, that introduced me to these forums) .

Glad to hear you have a plan.

Even if turns out that she's not the kind of teacher you want, don't give up on having a teacher. I'd stop lessons with her, continue self-learning and meanwhile continue the search for a teacher that does suit you. Having a GOOD teacher is marvelous and helps you learn much faster.

I've found that having an initial interview with the prospective teacher before any lessons helps a lot. You can tell him/her what you want to learn and what you don't want. And he/she can tell you about their teaching philosophy, how they handle adults students, etc.


Good luck.

I am not unwilling to practice easy stuff in order to catch up my sight-reading - quite the opposite - it's the best way that I can see to do it, as I can't sight-read more difficult stuff.

Contrary: I'm unwilling to practice ONLY easy stuff, which ONLY works on sight-reading to the exclusion of all other skills that comprise piano skills, until my sight-reading catches up to my playing skills. That could literally be many years.

It's Beethovens, no?