Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Piano Tuning
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
98 registered members (Bambers, alfredo capurso, anotherscott, ando, 36251, amad23, 25 invisible), 1,949 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2240360 - 03/02/14 08:04 PM What is considered a pitch raise for you?  
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 34
PeterGriffin Offline
Full Member
PeterGriffin  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 34
How much cents below pitch does a piano have to be for you to consider tuning it a pitch raise?

(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#2240378 - 03/02/14 08:45 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 128
Tim Sullivan Offline
Full Member
Tim Sullivan  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 128
Muskoka, Ontario
I almost always do two passes, so I don't know if my response is all that useful. I consider a pitch raise to be about 10 cents in the bass. If it's ten cents flat or sharp in the tenor, I just give that section a quick adjustment before I start to tune.
When I come across a piano that's really flat (like 70+ cemts or more), then I do three passes; one very quick by ear, then one with Tunelab in overpull mode, then one more by ear.
I strongly recommend two passes if the piano is overall more than about 10-15 cents flat.
The trick is to get through that first pass as quickly as possible. Every tuning will benefit from two passes.
Quick, rough tuning is almost as much of a skill as fine tuning.
Tim



I'm a piano tech and dealer in Central Ontario.
www.huntsvillepiano.ca
#2240401 - 03/02/14 09:16 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Generally if A4Fork beats at or faster than 7bps you may have to retune some sections.

I use a P4 window for precision and almost always have to deal with a pitch raise or drop around octaves six and seven.

P4 test:
M3<M10<M17<M6
Example
C#3F3<C#3F4<C#3F5<C#3A#3 (tempered 12th, =C#3A#3 for a pure 12th)

The octave and double octave has to fit between the P4 and that's pretty tight.
For consistent P4's, you get consistent M10's and M17's.
Also, and this is where the pitch raise comes in, I often find the top note of the double octave has drifted, and then I have to retune it.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2240411 - 03/02/14 09:34 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 141
showard Offline
Full Member
showard  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 141
Hortonville, Wisconsin
In general, if the piano is more than about 7 cents flat I will do a pitch raise. Though sometimes I'll only find the middle section to be about 10 cents flat and the rest fairly close. In these cases I'll run through the middle section to bring it close then go through the fine tuning. We've had so much cold weather this winter here in Wisconsin I'm finding that I'm leaving some of the pianos 10 cents flat or so as it's been so dry I know that the pitch is going to go up when the weather warms up. This avoids having to bring it up in pitch and then back down when I go to tune at the end of summer.


Steve Howard
Piano Technician
Owner of Howard Piano Industries
www.howardpianoindustries.com
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2240437 - 03/02/14 10:54 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
'Depends on the kind of day I'm having, and the financial status of the customer. (I'm kidding ... mostly.) Borderline cases are a judgement call.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2240588 - 03/03/14 09:39 AM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,960
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonTuner  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,960
Chicagoland
Here around Chicago, just about every tuning is a pitch raise/lower!

With the reality of the measured/calculated overpull available in most of the electronic tuning devices ending up so close to at pitch after one pass, why wouldn't I treat everything as a pitch raise? Even a piano with all the notes a few cents off either way is going to end up off pitch if you just aim at "in tune" one time through.

I just assume two passes for everything and move along...

Ron Koval

#2240592 - 03/03/14 09:48 AM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: RonTuner]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 208
anrpiano Offline
Full Member
anrpiano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 208
Chicago
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Here around Chicago, just about every tuning is a pitch raise/lower!

With the reality of the measured/calculated overpull available in most of the electronic tuning devices ending up so close to at pitch after one pass, why wouldn't I treat everything as a pitch raise? Even a piano with all the notes a few cents off either way is going to end up off pitch if you just aim at "in tune" one time through.

I just assume two passes for everything and move along...

Ron Koval


Ron is dead on. In my early years I would hear these discussions on Ptech about whether or not to tell the customer/charge/or even do a pitch raise. I never saw a piano which didn't have some significant pitch adjustment needs at the very least in the tenor. I just factored it into my normal service call and went on my way for 30 years. On those rare occasions when things are pretty close, I have few minutes to chase capstans or let off or anything else which catches my fancy.


Andrew Remillard
http://www.ANRPiano.com
http://www.AndrewRemillard.com
Downers Grove, IL 60515
#2240741 - 03/03/14 04:14 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: showard]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by showard
In general, if the piano is more than about 7 cents flat I will do a pitch raise. Though sometimes I'll only find the middle section to be about 10 cents flat and the rest fairly close. In these cases I'll run through the middle section to bring it close then go through the fine tuning. We've had so much cold weather this winter here in Wisconsin I'm finding that I'm leaving some of the pianos 10 cents flat or so as it's been so dry I know that the pitch is going to go up when the weather warms up. This avoids having to bring it up in pitch and then back down when I go to tune at the end of summer.


This has always confused me. If one does not tune to A440 exactly each time, don't you end up having to retune the treble and bass each time?


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2240746 - 03/03/14 04:17 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: RonTuner]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by RonTuner


I just assume two passes for everything and move along...

Ron Koval


With the P4 test, I end up with a "come along kids" approach that makes my one pass a little longer, but catches the drifters. It works for me.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2240752 - 03/03/14 04:29 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 129
DavidWB Online content
Full Member
DavidWB  Online Content
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 129
Grand Junction CO
I too almost always do what I think of as a preparatory passóone or more, as neededóbefore doing the fine tuning. I want most all of the strings within a couple of cents of target before the final pass. If the deviation is greater than that, I do bring the strings in line as needed. Sometimes only scattered notes or a certain section needs correction. Other times, of course, three passes (or even four) are necessary to prepare the piano for the fine tuning.

I find that the preparation saves time on the fine tuning, and the resulting tuning is going to be more stable for the customer.

A nice thing I've found is that, because of how varied the need for preparation can be, beyond a base rate for the fine tuning, I have a lot of flexibility to charge what I feel is appropriate for what I do for the preparation. When a new customer asks what I charge, I tell them the base fee for the fine tuning and explain that usually the piano will need preparation for the fine tuning, and the charge for that varies according to what I need to do. I then tell them what the high end, "worst case" could be.


David Bauguess
#2241874 - 03/05/14 08:37 PM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: PeterGriffin]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,930
88Key_PianoPlayer Offline
1000 Post Club Member
88Key_PianoPlayer  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,930
El Cajon, CA
So is my idea of "if the fork and A sound like a chord (2 separate notes), it needs a pitch raise" a little too lenient?


Associate Member - Piano Technicians Guild
1950 (#144211) Baldwin Hamilton
1956 (#167714) Baldwin Hamilton
You can right-click my avatar for an option to view a larger version.
#2242130 - 03/06/14 10:58 AM Re: What is considered a pitch raise for you? [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Tunewerk Offline
500 Post Club Member
Tunewerk  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Boston, MA
Any more than about 8c at 440 (~ 2Hz).

Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano
This has always confused me. If one does not tune to A440 exactly each time, don't you end up having to retune the treble and bass each time?


I agree.

Having maintained pianos in many cases where I've returned to them on a regular basis over time, I don't think this is a good method any longer.

Initially, I thought it made sense: the soundboard is rising and falling, so shouldn't we put less stress on the piano by tuning the midpoint?

What I've found is that in most cases the strings lose tension in a pocket in the middle, while the more supported (less mobile) areas of the soundboard tend to remain stable. Every piano has a unique signature of how it loses tension - but always starting in the center. So, the treble (above C6 or so) and the bass (below C2 or so), tend to remain stable.

If the tension is not recharged in the center pocket, then the treble and bass will begin to lose tension gradually and soon the piano will require a more drastic pitch raise. Conversely, if the extremes of the piano are corrected to the center pitch, the need for a more drastic pitch raise will be created later.

Over periods of soundboard movement, the strings do gradually lose tension. The piano cannot be modeled as a sine, but more accurately as a sine following a downward curve (with respect to net tension over time).


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Sostenuto Pedal technique
by Colin Miles. 10/22/17 11:49 AM
Messiaen - Vingt Regards
by Eric NYC. 10/22/17 10:59 AM
Pen Pal Thread
by cmb13. 10/22/17 07:26 AM
The difference between PTG and technician association?
by Fazioli-Yang. 10/22/17 12:27 AM
Sostenuto pedal
by Elysia.S. 10/21/17 10:52 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,420
Posts2,666,408
Members89,015
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0