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Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2234193 02/19/14 11:19 AM
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Ed, I am not sure who you think is a disbeliever but Grotrian neatly sidestepped your comments by referring to up to date instruments. That could have been tacit confirmation of what you've seen.



Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
Withindale #2234231 02/19/14 01:03 PM
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Ed:

I can't imagine anyone being dumb enough to gainsay your experience, expertise and artistry. Hope my little bit previously didn't come off as contrary to your valuable observations.

The new Grotrians I've played have been lovely instruments. However, they may very well be still beset by the issues that you've named. My experience with them has been "hit and run" - and not day to day, month to month.

Karl Watson
Staten Island, NY

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2234287 02/19/14 02:22 PM
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Do I detect a note of disbelief regarding my Grotrian observations?


Well, in truth, my tech with almost 40 years of experience arched an eyebrow. Since he does not post here, the floor remains yours.

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2234291 02/19/14 02:27 PM
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... from the few youtube clips I saw I reckon the action has become lighter.


I'm not sure what clips you have seen. And I wonder how easy it is to say anything definitive about a piano's action from a video.

Clearly, pianos from different generations can have very different characteristics. I have played older (1990 - 2000) Petrofs whose actions were very stiff and sluggish, and newer (but still previous generation) Petrofs from roughly 2007 with extremely light actions. Night and day.

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
Piano*Dad #2234542 02/19/14 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
I wonder how easy it is to say anything definitive about a piano's action from a video.

You can check it out.
Remove one key from anywhere but the last 2 octaves or so.

Now probe a few small holes in the underside of the key just behind the front at the left or the right side, which is where two leads are mounted vertically.

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2234570 02/19/14 11:20 PM
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Otherside,

You realize nearly the entire industry uses lead weights to balance the keys of a grand piano, right? Many keys on pianos I know have 2-3 sets of lead weights in the keys (including some top makers). This can become problematic if overdone, but nearly every piano has them.

I'm not trying to sound like a "smart Alec", just trying to be sure you understand their widespread use. Perhaps the manner of key weighting looks different on their older models, compared to what you see today.


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Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
terminaldegree #2234617 02/20/14 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
You realize nearly the entire industry uses lead weights to balance the keys of a grand piano, right?
That's true, read my second post.

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2234717 02/20/14 07:59 AM
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Well, I reread it. I find no indication in there that you understand that weighted keys is normal. You are entitled to hold whatever opinions you like about Grotrian actions (new or old). But the fact that Grotrian weights the keys -- as does that horrible firm in NY and Hamburg -- offers me no evidence to support the sweeping statements you have made.

This is part of my confusion over your "watch a video" comment. I had presumed you were saying you could watch a video of someone playing a piano and just "know" what the action was like. Instead it seems you were watching a clip from Sam's website (maybe?) of how a piano is manufactured -- including the insertion of lead weights. I didn't ransack Sam's site to find the video.


Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
Piano*Dad #2234725 02/20/14 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
I find no indication in there that you understand that weighted keys is normal.
I assumed everyone would know this.

Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
This is part of my confusion over your "watch a video" comment. I had presumed you were saying you could watch a video of someone playing a piano and just "know" what the action was like.

That was the idea indeed.

The point of the leads is how (vertically) and where (under your hand) they are located.

This is non-standard and causes certain effects, that's all, you may even like it smile


Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2234734 02/20/14 09:01 AM
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Ah, I see. You don't like it, so that is why Grotrian is "famous" for its bad actions. grin

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
otherside #2236619 02/24/14 01:53 AM
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From Fazioli website, explanation on weighting keys:
http://www.fazioli.com/en/fazioli/philosophy/weighing-the-keyboard


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2236642 02/24/14 04:44 AM
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This is the first time I have read anything negative on Grotrian Steinweg piano's.
They are very high regarded over here (and more common). I do like Bernd's approach and am very anxious to here about his findings with the older Grotrian's.



Last edited by wimpiano; 02/24/14 04:45 AM.
Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2237919 02/26/14 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ajw400
I'm considering buying a Grotrian concert model 220 from 1976. It has some ripples in the lacquer which makes me worried that it was subject to harsh conditions (humidity sunlight etc.) but it sounds great and the price is cheap enough. 5 years ago it got new strings and hammers (Abel). Slightly more expensive would be a Yamaha C7 of the same age, which is in better regulation but I like the sound of the Grotrian more and I think with some regulation it could feel just as even and precise. It is for a big space so we want something powerful and also stable with temperature and humidity fluctuations....though we might install one of those under-piano humidity systems. Any thoughts?


ajw400- What are they asking for the piano?

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2237983 02/26/14 02:04 PM
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Quick question. Didn't the author of "grand obsession" change her hammers out to Abel's? I don't have her book with me right now but I recalled that the hammers (and tuning) were at the crux of her attempts to recreate the sound in the showroom.

Some posters to this thread are describing the Grotrian sound just like she did. Now I want to hear one close up.......blob


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Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
WimPiano #2238135 02/26/14 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wimpiano
This is the first time I have read anything negative on Grotrian Steinweg piano's.
They are very high regarded over here (and more common). I do like Bernd's approach and am very anxious to here about his findings with the older Grotrian's.


Hi wimpiano,

the evaluation of several Grotrian pianos of different types (uprights, grands, no squares..) ;-) in one big shop gave me the absolute clear impression that there EXISTS a maker's handwriting in regard of sound. Look to the website of one of Germany's biggest piano dealers, www.klavierhalle.de, and select to the Grotrian make alphabetically, and you'll see them all.

My special interest is always related to the grands.. <shy>.. and all the grands there, also of elder make back to the 1920ies years gave me a "Hey Nice to see/hear you again Mr Grotrian" impression.

Two of the simpliest uprigths also shared one mistake..., a "pock" sound when releasing the (quite small) upper keys: a strip of felt missing, the restoring piano maker had forgotten. The shop owner excuses: "shop blindness". They knew it, it is a tiny job, but had forgotten.. This not to the blame of the Grotrian people in Brunswick!

One of the most impressive things there was the actuall newly coming-in Grotrian concert grand of 8 ft. lenght. Also with the typical Grotrian sound, and with a powerfull ans skin-shivering bass... WHOAH what a fine piano - and this being nearly 100 years old.

= = =

OT On my last visit there - I try to be there 3-4 times in a year - also delivered me being successful in wakening up the love of the shop owner to the same classic S class Mercedes cars of which I do own two sedans - Diesel conversions off of the Uncle-Ben'z specifications.. <shy> and the shop owner owning a beautiful coupé of the heaviest 560 SEC vee eight cylinder stuff with ca. 300 HP... which he is actualy re-awakening after seven (!!!) years of hard work for his piano shop. He proudly showed me several pictures of his three-plus-one-wheel other big baby...

I am better in describing a vee eight sound than describing an eight feet piano sound: <GRONN GRONN GRONN GRONN>.
smile

Sound bound - me & most probably the owner also.

Why the heck would anybody omit driving a veritable Mercedes eight cylinder coupé if he would not like a tiny little bit more to deal with fine pianos !?! (OK - it's my explanation. You're allowed to discard this argument.. ) *1*

Two elderly boys with their toys. Me w. one concert grand at home, he actually with four concert grands: the Grotrian 8ft., a Blüthner 280, a marvellous Bechstein D 280 which I estimate being one of the best (slightly) used european concert grands which money can buy actually - and a wonderful big quite new Steingraeber brownie.

And no, he is not my bro-in-law and no relative and I get nothing there, I never asked for a coffee or was offered one because we never have time enough to drink one, there is normally too much to tell... Nothing I do get there, besides of some two hours of friendly smiles, nice music from the professional pianist there, some nice piano talking and several fine pianos to play - I evaluated them all, these 16 Grotrian pianos, with the same Chopin nocturne 9-2.

And I also was temptated to steal eventually the whitey one grand in the entrance and the big block vee eight feet Grotrian engine concert grand - like their flame new bro 225 in Brunswick.

The whitey one must be a sister of the "Marlene" grand owned by Perri Knize - in this marvellous state with the SCT "Schubert Concert Tuning" (co mark Wienert).

= = = =

*1* look out for a YouTube video, a local SFB heroe of the boogie scene presenting in a TV show the 96 years old Pinetop Smith playing a grand - and giving same explanation why he does this in his biblic age?

blinking eyes - big grin - a very deep rough voice - telling:

I LIKE IT!!!


Pls excuse any bad english.

Centennial D Sept 1877

Working on Berceuse op.57
Nocturnes op. 9-1,3 15-1,2,3 27-2 32-1,2
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Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2238803 02/28/14 12:10 AM
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Last year was my first (and so far, only) experience playing a Grotrian, a new 192 at a store in Portland. The previous day, I had played pretty much all the good grand pianos, new and used, at the other two piano dealers in town, but this Grotrian was the one that immediately made me say "wow!" It seemed flawless in touch and tone. I played many fine pianos that weekend, with many different personalities, but that Grotrian really stood out.

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2238871 02/28/14 04:53 AM
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@BerndAB sounds really nice to be in the position to play so many nice grands.
It's not to far from here so whenever in the distant future (my wife doesn't want a grand) I'm shopping for a grand I'll definitely pay them a visit.

Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2239515 03/01/14 11:56 AM
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Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2247538 03/16/14 02:55 PM
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>I'm curious if *in general* a piano that is from 1976 is due for a complete action replacement/rebuilding? And if so how much that generally might cost?

Yes

When I searched for my Grotrian, I hit one from around 1980 which was rarely played. I had a tech inspect it. From top of my head, the felts, hammers and strings needed replacement. Action needed serious attention, felts and leathers were worn. These parts all wear out, even if not used they still are under constant pressure. This is not "complete replacement/rebuilding" but still will cost some serious $

A tech here maybe can inform you about a ballpark price


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Re: Grotrian Steinweg 220
ajw400 #2247556 03/16/14 03:38 PM
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Wouter, are you sure grand piano hammers wear out when a piano is not played? Cleaning strings and termination points can work wonders!


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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