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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237090
02/24/14 09:36 PM
02/24/14 09:36 PM
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By the way, make sure you aren't trying to play that passage literally.


Regards,

Polyphonist
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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237113
02/24/14 10:12 PM
02/24/14 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Hrodulf
Originally Posted by Derulux
Quote
I thought this thread was supposed to be about techniques for playing the piano faster anyway, not about what pieces I was choosing to learn.

I think a lot of what you may be experiencing here is this -- a lot of qualified people are giving you very sound advice about how to approach this topic, but you are very closed off to listening to what they have to say. Earlier, you mentioned the mountain is there to climb. Yes, it is. But does that mean the first time you try to climb a mountain, you should pick Everest? No. If you did, you would almost certainly die.

On a slightly different note: earlier you said you "had been trying" for "three days". I was confused by that remark. Have you been attempting these pieces for three days, or have you been playing the piano for three days? How much experience do you have at the piano?


I played in high school and about 10 years ago and I'm resuming now. I've been working on the first 2.5 pages of the liszt for three days. As for the difficulty I could be wrong but I believe in the power of practice to make difficulties negotiable.

Okay, good. At least you have some history of sitting down at the keys! grin

Now, I agree that certain kinds of practice can overcome difficulties. The question is, do you believe you can get where you want to go faster if you practice efficiently, or would you say that ineffective practice will still get you where you want to go?

If you place a mountain in front of you that may take 30 years to climb, but you start out sprinting for the top, how far do you think you'll make it before you have to stop? Do you think you can sprint uphill for 30 seconds? A minute? And after that minute, you take a break. When you're rested, you sprint again. How far this time? 20 seconds? Then, you take another break. And what happens when you reach a portion of the climb that you do not know how to negotiate? Do you go back down and try to find another way up, losing even more time? Do you try to call someone to get their advice, risking a nasty fall and potential death in order to ascend that much quicker? Point is, the approach taken is not the most effective, or the most efficient way to climb a mountain. wink

Last edited by Derulux; 02/24/14 10:13 PM.

Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237116
02/24/14 10:15 PM
02/24/14 10:15 PM
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I am/was in a similar boat, with a slew of personal and health problems before discovering music. Music WILL give you the motivation you need to conquer any hurdles in life - it's the key to life, imo. Also, we may all have speed limits, but it's not like we can really say with any honesty what they are. For everyone, the absolute limits are probably a lot higher than whatever progress that person has made thus far. Even someone with 'average' ability in any area can train to become quite good, with time and effort. Maybe not the best in the world, but you don't need to be the 'best' or anywhere close to tackle any piece you want to play. In that way it's not particularly helpful to think about whatever speed limit you 'naturally' have.

It actually does come down to time and experience than anything. But don't let that get in the way of your passion. I'm 28 years old and I started at 26, so I am familiar with the uphill battles of an adult learner. It just takes time, and there's no way around that. So it's better to just accept it, and remember that in all honesty, you have plenty of time to learn the piano. Also, it's counter-productive to learning if you worry a lot or rush things, so go at the pace that will help you learn quickest - slow and steady!


Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237124
02/24/14 10:34 PM
02/24/14 10:34 PM
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As someone your age who is also endeavoring to get better, I would like to echo this sentiment: you've got time.

In fact, if you take it pragmatically and more measured, you'll make better and faster progress than if you aim too high too soon. The technique that goes into playing more difficult pieces has to be worked on in less difficult pieces so that you can learn how to do it in a controlled, relaxed manner.

The truth is that this just can't be rushed.

But it very much can be delayed.

Good luck!


Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2237134
02/24/14 11:01 PM
02/24/14 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
As someone your age who is also endeavoring to get better, I would like to echo this sentiment: you've got time.

In fact, if you take it pragmatically and more measured, you'll make better and faster progress than if you aim too high too soon. The technique that goes into playing more difficult pieces has to be worked on in less difficult pieces so that you can learn how to do it in a controlled, relaxed manner.

The truth is that this just can't be rushed.

But it very much can be delayed.

+1


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Polyphonist] #2237149
02/24/14 11:39 PM
02/24/14 11:39 PM
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Hrodulf Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
By the way, make sure you aren't trying to play that passage literally.


What do you mean by "literally"

I'm getting better at it also, by the way. The way I see things, I will probably never have the technique of Hamelin but I believe I will be able to play the piece within the limits of my own musical ability, which is the most I can do, and perhaps the process will expand what is available to me.


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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237163
02/25/14 12:27 AM
02/25/14 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Hrodulf
The way I see things, I will probably never have the technique of Hamelin but I believe I will be able to play the piece within the limits of my own musical ability, which is the most I can do, and perhaps the process will expand what is available to me.

I agree with this assessment, but only because you're not willing to do what Hamelin did in order to acquire that technique. He didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll play the Liszt sonata today." It took years to build his technique and musicianship in order to approach the piece.

Since you haven't really responded to the mountain analogy, let me try another:

Let's say you are accused of murder. Who do you want defending you? The guy who went to law school, studied, passed the bar, worked for one or more firms, built hundreds of cases under the tutelage of more experienced lawyers, eventually opened his own firm, and tried hundreds of murder cases in which the vast majority of his clients were found not guilty? Or the guy who read enough law books to pass the bar and figures he'll learn the rest by trying murder cases, the outcomes of which are uncertain and if he loses his cases, he figures he'll just quit law all together?

There is a practiced, tried-and-true method to learning anything. I don't care if it's how to spell your name, play a sport, become a brain surgeon, or play an instrument. That way doesn't ever happen by trying to start on step 50 and saying, "I'll get there by repetition." Oh, and I figure I'll throw this in from my decades of martial arts training, in which I have far more experience than piano, but I do believe the same adage applies: Repetition and practicing are not synonymous terms. Just because you repeat something over and over does not mean you are getting better. It could mean you're simply ingraining bad habits. I see students make this mistake every single day. The idea that "practice makes perfect" is wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect; it makes permanent. If you want what becomes permanent to be perfect, then only perfect practice will get you there. And that is a heck of a long way from repetition, and an even longer way from stabbing at extremely difficult pieces in the dark.

I hope this resonates, because I am sincerely trying to help you. You can get where you want to go; I firmly believe that. I just don't believe the road you're walking down will get you there. It's kind of like you're trying to reach the roof of the house, but your ladder is currently leaning against the wrong building. Yes, you'll climb the ladder; you'll make progress. You may even get to the top of the ladder. But at the end of the day, the ladder is still leaning against the wrong building. wink


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237165
02/25/14 12:34 AM
02/25/14 12:34 AM
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I would further add that when I finally did practice arpeggios, it much such a difference that I regretted not practicing them earlier.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Derulux] #2237172
02/25/14 12:49 AM
02/25/14 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Derulux
Originally Posted by Hrodulf
The way I see things, I will probably never have the technique of Hamelin but I believe I will be able to play the piece within the limits of my own musical ability, which is the most I can do, and perhaps the process will expand what is available to me.

I agree with this assessment, but only because you're not willing to do what Hamelin did in order to acquire that technique. He didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll play the Liszt sonata today." It took years to build his technique and musicianship in order to approach the piece.

Since you haven't really responded to the mountain analogy, let me try another:

Let's say you are accused of murder. Who do you want defending you? The guy who went to law school, studied, passed the bar, worked for one or more firms, built hundreds of cases under the tutelage of more experienced lawyers, eventually opened his own firm, and tried hundreds of murder cases in which the vast majority of his clients were found not guilty? Or the guy who read enough law books to pass the bar and figures he'll learn the rest by trying murder cases, the outcomes of which are uncertain and if he loses his cases, he figures he'll just quit law all together?

There is a practiced, tried-and-true method to learning anything. I don't care if it's how to spell your name, play a sport, become a brain surgeon, or play an instrument. That way doesn't ever happen by trying to start on step 50 and saying, "I'll get there by repetition." Oh, and I figure I'll throw this in from my decades of martial arts training, in which I have far more experience than piano, but I do believe the same adage applies: Repetition and practicing are not synonymous terms. Just because you repeat something over and over does not mean you are getting better. It could mean you're simply ingraining bad habits. I see students make this mistake every single day. The idea that "practice makes perfect" is wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect; it makes permanent. If you want what becomes permanent to be perfect, then only perfect practice will get you there. And that is a heck of a long way from repetition, and an even longer way from stabbing at extremely difficult pieces in the dark.

I hope this resonates, because I am sincerely trying to help you. You can get where you want to go; I firmly believe that. I just don't believe the road you're walking down will get you there. It's kind of like you're trying to reach the roof of the house, but your ladder is currently leaning against the wrong building. Yes, you'll climb the ladder; you'll make progress. You may even get to the top of the ladder. But at the end of the day, the ladder is still leaning against the wrong building. wink


Well duh I'm learning it to develop those skills. Honestly watching you lot have brain aneurysms over this is nothing other than confusing.

Last edited by Hrodulf; 02/25/14 12:54 AM.

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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237184
02/25/14 01:18 AM
02/25/14 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Hrodulf
Originally Posted by Derulux
Originally Posted by Hrodulf
The way I see things, I will probably never have the technique of Hamelin but I believe I will be able to play the piece within the limits of my own musical ability, which is the most I can do, and perhaps the process will expand what is available to me.

I agree with this assessment, but only because you're not willing to do what Hamelin did in order to acquire that technique. He didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll play the Liszt sonata today." It took years to build his technique and musicianship in order to approach the piece.

Since you haven't really responded to the mountain analogy, let me try another:

Let's say you are accused of murder. Who do you want defending you? The guy who went to law school, studied, passed the bar, worked for one or more firms, built hundreds of cases under the tutelage of more experienced lawyers, eventually opened his own firm, and tried hundreds of murder cases in which the vast majority of his clients were found not guilty? Or the guy who read enough law books to pass the bar and figures he'll learn the rest by trying murder cases, the outcomes of which are uncertain and if he loses his cases, he figures he'll just quit law all together?

There is a practiced, tried-and-true method to learning anything. I don't care if it's how to spell your name, play a sport, become a brain surgeon, or play an instrument. That way doesn't ever happen by trying to start on step 50 and saying, "I'll get there by repetition." Oh, and I figure I'll throw this in from my decades of martial arts training, in which I have far more experience than piano, but I do believe the same adage applies: Repetition and practicing are not synonymous terms. Just because you repeat something over and over does not mean you are getting better. It could mean you're simply ingraining bad habits. I see students make this mistake every single day. The idea that "practice makes perfect" is wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect; it makes permanent. If you want what becomes permanent to be perfect, then only perfect practice will get you there. And that is a heck of a long way from repetition, and an even longer way from stabbing at extremely difficult pieces in the dark.

I hope this resonates, because I am sincerely trying to help you. You can get where you want to go; I firmly believe that. I just don't believe the road you're walking down will get you there. It's kind of like you're trying to reach the roof of the house, but your ladder is currently leaning against the wrong building. Yes, you'll climb the ladder; you'll make progress. You may even get to the top of the ladder. But at the end of the day, the ladder is still leaning against the wrong building. wink


Well duh I'm learning it to develop those skills. Honestly watching you lot have brain aneurysms over this is nothing other than confusing.

Last try for me: would you get into a fist fight with Muhammad Ali in order to learn how to defend yourself? Or do you think there might be a better way than getting knocked out by the first punch?


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Derulux] #2237187
02/25/14 01:30 AM
02/25/14 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Derulux
Last try for me....

Golly, you're more persistent than I am. grin

I don't think he's receptive. He'll just have to find out for himself, I guess. Or not.

Hrodulf: Derulux is way right -- I promise you. You're really better off if you try to get more out of what he's been saying. You think we're being discouraging or not getting it or something. That ain't it.

Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Derulux] #2237188
02/25/14 01:33 AM
02/25/14 01:33 AM
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Hrodulf Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Derulux
Originally Posted by Hrodulf
Originally Posted by Derulux
Originally Posted by Hrodulf
The way I see things, I will probably never have the technique of Hamelin but I believe I will be able to play the piece within the limits of my own musical ability, which is the most I can do, and perhaps the process will expand what is available to me.

I agree with this assessment, but only because you're not willing to do what Hamelin did in order to acquire that technique. He didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll play the Liszt sonata today." It took years to build his technique and musicianship in order to approach the piece.

Since you haven't really responded to the mountain analogy, let me try another:

Let's say you are accused of murder. Who do you want defending you? The guy who went to law school, studied, passed the bar, worked for one or more firms, built hundreds of cases under the tutelage of more experienced lawyers, eventually opened his own firm, and tried hundreds of murder cases in which the vast majority of his clients were found not guilty? Or the guy who read enough law books to pass the bar and figures he'll learn the rest by trying murder cases, the outcomes of which are uncertain and if he loses his cases, he figures he'll just quit law all together?

There is a practiced, tried-and-true method to learning anything. I don't care if it's how to spell your name, play a sport, become a brain surgeon, or play an instrument. That way doesn't ever happen by trying to start on step 50 and saying, "I'll get there by repetition." Oh, and I figure I'll throw this in from my decades of martial arts training, in which I have far more experience than piano, but I do believe the same adage applies: Repetition and practicing are not synonymous terms. Just because you repeat something over and over does not mean you are getting better. It could mean you're simply ingraining bad habits. I see students make this mistake every single day. The idea that "practice makes perfect" is wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect; it makes permanent. If you want what becomes permanent to be perfect, then only perfect practice will get you there. And that is a heck of a long way from repetition, and an even longer way from stabbing at extremely difficult pieces in the dark.

I hope this resonates, because I am sincerely trying to help you. You can get where you want to go; I firmly believe that. I just don't believe the road you're walking down will get you there. It's kind of like you're trying to reach the roof of the house, but your ladder is currently leaning against the wrong building. Yes, you'll climb the ladder; you'll make progress. You may even get to the top of the ladder. But at the end of the day, the ladder is still leaning against the wrong building. wink


Well duh I'm learning it to develop those skills. Honestly watching you lot have brain aneurysms over this is nothing other than confusing.

Last try for me: would you get into a fist fight with Muhammad Ali in order to learn how to defend yourself? Or do you think there might be a better way than getting knocked out by the first punch?


I already learned the notes to the first two pages and a half, it's difficult but in my opinion you are exaggerating. Anyway I'm going to be looking at some schoenberg and other modernist stuff and that looks even harder. But that's ok, if I can't play it I just walk away. Nobody goes to the hospital.


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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Mark_C] #2237198
02/25/14 02:00 AM
02/25/14 02:00 AM
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Hrodulf Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
You think we're being discouraging or not getting it or something. That ain't it.


Ok you got me. I'll never play Liszt again. Happy now?

In substitution I start gaspard tomorrow.

Last edited by Hrodulf; 02/25/14 02:01 AM.

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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237199
02/25/14 02:07 AM
02/25/14 02:07 AM
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@Hrodulf
Are you not even reading the posts by Derulux, Mark_C, etc? Or is it that you don't understand what they're saying?

You can't even pull off a remotely convincing Chopin Op 55 no 1; not even close. What on earth makes you think you can acquire pieces that are far, far, far above that level of difficulty? It's so plainly obvious that you're not even close to being ready for these pieces.

At first I added that you ought to play whatever you want to play, but seeing how ignorant you are has changed my mind.

Do you think you're some kind of prodigy that can just jump right into the B minor sonata? News flash: you're not and you never will be.

The problem with your idea is that, in trying learning these pieces that are far above you, you're going to ingrain into your brain an ultimately flawed approach to these pieces. The beginning stages of learning are the most important, and you'll just be ruining your technique and method with these pieces by building the wrong connections in your brain. The time to learn something is grossly overwhelmed by the time to relearn that same thing.

You're wasting your time. You are not ready for these pieces, and it's clear you won't be for some time.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237201
02/25/14 02:09 AM
02/25/14 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Hrodulf

I already learned the notes to the first two pages and a half

"Learning the notes" is not making music. Anyone here can learn the notes to La Campanella; few can actually recite it.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237203
02/25/14 02:15 AM
02/25/14 02:15 AM
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Not sufficient but necessary. I've been working on this for less than a week
My point was if I can learn the notes and develop the technique required I can play this. And if I'm wrong I wont. I'm doing this regardless of what any of you write, because I like the piece and want to do so something spectacular with my life. So you can stop posting. I'm not going to change my mind.

Last edited by Hrodulf; 02/25/14 02:16 AM.

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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237211
02/25/14 02:38 AM
02/25/14 02:38 AM
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Honestly, if someone is motivated to try something hard, let him try. People learn more quickly by trying things that excite them than by trying things that bore them.

I will give you a pedagogical example. Research has shown it is faster to learn Chinese if you focus on speaking first, then focus on writing. For a while, a lot of professors used that method to teach Chinese. However, then they realized students stay more engaged if they learn characters, even if the total time to learn is slower. So now most professors teach Chinese characters and speaking together.

If he's motivated to learn, don't stop him. The only questions is what he'll do after he gets knocked out by Ali.....get up and try again, or just give up altogether.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Atrys] #2237214
02/25/14 02:45 AM
02/25/14 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@Hrodulf
Are you not even reading the posts by Derulux, Mark_C, etc? Or is it that you don't understand what they're saying?

You can't even pull off a remotely convincing Chopin Op 55 no 1; not even close. What on earth makes you think you can acquire pieces that are far, far, far above that level of difficulty? It's so plainly obvious that you're not even close to being ready for these pieces.

At first I added that you ought to play whatever you want to play, but seeing how ignorant you are has changed my mind.

Do you think you're some kind of prodigy that can just jump right into the B minor sonata? News flash: you're not and you never will be.

The problem with your idea is that, in trying learning these pieces that are far above you, you're going to ingrain into your brain an ultimately flawed approach to these pieces. The beginning stages of learning are the most important, and you'll just be ruining your technique and method with these pieces by building the wrong connections in your brain. The time to learn something is grossly overwhelmed by the time to relearn that same thing.

You're wasting your time. You are not ready for these pieces, and it's clear you won't be for some time.


No I fixed it. I'm doing gaspard instead now.


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Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237241
02/25/14 07:30 AM
02/25/14 07:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
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Polyphonist Offline
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Polyphonist  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
New York City
Apparently nothing is getting across here.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: This might be a stupid question but .. [Re: Hrodulf] #2237262
02/25/14 08:36 AM
02/25/14 08:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,113
TwoSnowflakes Offline
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TwoSnowflakes  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,113
Originally Posted by Hrodulf

Well duh I'm learning it to develop those skills. Honestly watching you lot have brain aneurysms over this is nothing other than confusing.


Wait a moment; when people offer you sincere advice to questions you asked, and then take the the time to explain themselves and then reframe their answers when their point isn't being fully understood...this kind of help simply comes across as mindless hysteria?

I think it's probably us that ought to be confused. You asked how to play faster, and pretty much everybody said (in a variety of different ways), "slow, steady work on more accessible pieces." Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean the answer is going to change.

And because there isn't another answer we can give you, you decided we were having a "brain aneurism" and are now posting things that are, frankly, petulant and sarcastic.

I really tried to give sincere help. I'd even written a long response to your questions on repertoire with feedback on your nocturne and suggestions for where you can go from here with it to build up some of the basic facility that goes into playing it well, like I had to build when also playing nocturnes, but my suspicion now is that you don't want feedback, really, you want ratification.

So I suppose I can give that, but only at this level: I think you're making a good choice to learn piano. Best of luck with it and I hope you achieve what you set out to achieve. Good luck, really.

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