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There was an old forum posted on here in 2006 and i wanted to see if there were any modern pianos that can be offered.



"This may be a long shot but are there any decent digital pianos out there with wooden keys? )

Just wondering as so far all the pianos I've tried, although sound lovely and have a nice action, irritate me because of the plastic keys and i don't want to spend lots on something that will irk me." - Izzy

Hi,

I think there are quite some high end digitals that have wooden keys. Think of the Kawai instruments with RM or GF actions. Though pretty much all have a synthetic covering to simultate the ivory covering used in the past. So you won't be touching any real wood. unless maybe for the black keys which could still be ebony.

I'm sure there are tohers with wooden keys too. (yamaha CP4, CP5,...)

Kind regards,

Wouter.

The wood in the Yamaha stage pianos is cosmetic. It gives the marketing guys bragging rights but does nothing regarding feel.

Of course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong many times before.

Yeah several Kawai actions use wooden keys. I'm happy to be corrected on this point if I'm missing something, but I don't see how it really matters whether or not the keys are made of wood:
If the concern is about how the tops of keys feel, that's not going to be wood anyway. I much prefer synthetic "ivory feel" to glossy keys, but many fantastic real grand pianos have glossy keys, and both options involve a separate layer on top of the wooden key.
If, on the other hand, it's about how the key behaves with respect to the action mechanism, then it's the weight of the key that matters more than the specific material.

I can see it mattering in subtle ways - the way a wooden key absorbs the vibration of impact every time it is pressed may be noticeably distinct to a discerning player, but there are more important concerns when trying to find the right instrument on a budget.

Do you have (or have you had) an opportunity to try some of the instruments you're considering? It's very easy (speaking from recent experience) to dwell endlessly on distinctions one reads about in descriptions and reviews online. The experience of actually playing two different instruments for 5 minutes each will be more helpful in cutting through the noise and evaluating according to your needs than 10 hours of reading reviews and specs. This is especially true if your primary concern is the physical feel of the keys/action.

Personally I found Kawai to be head and shoulders above everything else, dollar for dollar. I liked the Yamaha Hybrids but couldn't afford them, and I hated pretty much everything else from Yamaha (including a Clavinova that cost a lot more than the CA65 I decided on). I'm sure someone in this forum would have the exact opposite assessment - in fact I remember seeing someone recently express disdain for the grand feel action, finding the keybed to be unnaturally soft. The point is, no amount of online research would have helped me to reach what was an obvious conclusion in person.

It's late and I hope my rambly reply is not too presumptuous; it just struck me, based on your posts, that you may be suffering from information overload.

You really have to try them in person if you are sensitive about the material used.

But as said, you won't be touching directly the wood, and ivory is not in use now, acoustics or digitals, so it's always going to be a plastic, resin or synthetic ivory what you actually touch. And of course, the actual feeling will be different even within the same brand as they might have used different materials with the newest models.

I simply loved the Kawai CA series action and touch, CA15, CA65, CA95 and if you live in the USA you have the CE220 instead of the CA15. CS7 and CS10 have an upgraded cabinet from CA65 and CA95 and look and sound even more gorgeous.

Also the Kawai VPC1, which I haven't tried but has good reviews.

Yamaha also has some models with wooden keys like the CLP-470 which I tried and really liked, but the Kawai CA15 was some £700 cheaper and the CA65 was also about £250 cheaper. Had it had a better price I would have been looking at it quite seriously and it would have made my decision harder. All the Yamaha models before that didn't feel good to me, especially looking at the price compared to other brands. The CLP-440 was good, but still £500 more expensive than Kawai CN34, which is very similar.

My problem with Yamaha is that I would have had to spend a lot more to get very similar features than with Kawai, when we are talking middle and upper middle range models. I absolutely loved the Yamaha NU1, which has real acoustic action, but at £4K was simply too expensive. But I also loved the Kawai CA95 and the CS10 would have been a dream for me at £800 less than the NU1!

Yamaha has reduced some prices, so they might now be in a better comparison level with Kawai than when I bought mine.

I think that any Roland dp has wooden keys. However, I really liked some of their pianos, including the touch. It was only the keybed noise that I really disliked but it seems that they have been working to sort that out. So again they worth a try.

It depends on your budget and your personal preferences, so really you will have to try many models and makers to make up your mind.

I agree... the presence or absence of wood doesn't tell you enough to let you know whether you will prefer one action over another. But I do suspect that a key being solid rather than hollow will impart a different feel when struck even if two keys are the same weight. Related to that, the mass of the keys will be different, even if weighting devices are used so that they achieve the same amount of resistance; and the weight distribution within the key may be different. So I can see numerous ways, at least theoretically, in which a wooden key can feel better than a plastic one, all else being equal (as if that's ever the case...).

I agree to with peeve0717's point of view.

To put it concisely, having wooden keys is a detail - one small variable among many others - which may subtly affect the action. But it is not the key feature that many people make it out to be.

It seems like the wooden keys generally get coupled with the better actions, so it's hard to find a comparison between exactly the same action with or without wooden keys.

I respect Roland's take on the situation - essentially that "making keys out of wood is stupid", so they don't do it. Wood is simply an inferior material to modern plastics and metals - it's uneven, gets wet, dries out, cracks, expands, can't be precisely moulded, is weaker etc. Wood does have some uses where you need bulk and malleability, like in furniture and house building, but not so much where you need precision and durability - space shuttles, cars, instrumentation, computer keyboards... really, I'm surprised that acoustic pianos still use it, but at least it keeps piano technicians in business.

Consequently, I don't think it would be possible to make a hammer action of the common "fold-up" type out of wood - or at least, if you did, it would be very difficult to achieve evenness and reliability. That's why the Yamahas are only wood veneers, and the Kawais, which do have solid wood keys, had to completely change the design, so in the GF keyboards the wood is basically just a long stick with a couple of holes in it. As such, they have to make trade-offs. The actual hammers on GF are much smaller than in the Roland actions, an the action overall is heavier, bulkier and more expensive. But for some people making it out of wood is a sign of luxury and authenticity, even if it is stupid.

The idea that the wood in Yamaha's NW and NW-stage actions is a veneer only used for cosmetic purposes is a longstanding misconception based on some misleading pictures. Actually the keys are solid wood, with a plastic along the bottom and forming the hinge. NW is not as completely wood as the Kawai wood actions, but the main mass of the key is a solid wood piece.

I can't say that it is because of the wood, but NW feels quite different from and better than GH3 to me.

lolatu, I believe some of your points don't hold true. If anything, wood has very good structural properties, much better than normal plastics that I suspect is used in many plastic actions (for example, aircraft propellers used to be and some still are manufactured of wood). There is a reason why the only DP actions with full grand piano fulcrum key length (Yamaha Avandgrand action & Kawai GF) are made of wood. Kawai make synthetic "Millenium" real piano actions too, but they are made of ABS with carbon fibers and I suspect that their manufacturing is considerably more costly than wood.

Consequently, I think that the design of Kawai GF/RM actions, which you describe as "long stick with a couple of holes in it", is not a result of wood being inferior material, but the opposite - only wood has mechanical strength to allow this (IMHO superior and more piano-like) design. The stress on the key in this design is quite strong - I can clearly feel the key flexing in forte strokes on my CA65 - I suspect it could be difficult to make a key manufactured from normal plastics strong enough.

Is this a direct quote from Roland marketing materials?



Yes, like an acoustic piano key.

I encourage those sceptical about the use of wooden keys in a digital piano to play-test a Kawai with the 'RM3 Grand' or 'Grand Feel' keyboard actions.

Kind regards,
James
x

Unfortunately not. I'm paraphrasing Rick DePiro in this video about the HP507.


I'm not saying it doesn't work, since people seem to like the action, but if you replaced the wood with wood coloured plastic I'd bet no-one could tell the difference.

May I ask if you've played a Kawai with a wooden-key action?

James
x

I would bet the opposite.

I felt the same way until I started using the CP4. I believe the NWGH keys make a significant difference in touch, feel, and control especially as I compare it to my acoustic upright. The best wooden keys I tried, better than my CP4, was the CA65. Kawai really nailed the wood key action for digital pianos.

I tried many dps, both with wooden and plastic keys. Some actions are better than others, and they feel completely different. There will always be a personal choice factor in this.

The action of the CA/CS series with wooden keys is simply amazing, and I don't think I was biased as I tried them before even knowing about their technical features and they got me drooling instantly. I wasn't going to buy any of them, but decided to give them a try as I was on my own. Only then came the shop guy and explained what I was playing and I saw the key display. No sales pressure whatsoever, I simply tried them and knew their action was far better.

So please give them a good try, spend some time with them. If after that you still think that their action with wooden keys is nothing special, you are of course welcome to have your own opinion. But you have to try them first.

I can smell the wooden action on my DP. It's a pleasant smell.