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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232186 02/15/14 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Give me a break, please. Beethoven was able to write his greatest music only because of the detachment from the world that his deafness provided him.

No, give us a break. ha

Besides that being a theory and guess (with which I don't totally disagree, BTW), we don't know what other great or greater music he might have written if his hearing hadn't gone.

I would agree that it almost certainly would have been different.
But less great? We can't say.

P.S. On the more general issue, I agree that hardship and distress can lead to greater depth and greater greatness.

I also agree that better circumstances during childhood (and beyond) usually give people a better chance to do well, including doing better on IQ tests and SAT's, and seeming more "intelligent."

Which gives a better chance for someone to be a "genius"?
Either and both. smile
You could argue either way.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2232187 02/15/14 05:46 PM
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I don't see why his deafness would've made his orchestration any different. He still heard the music in his head.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Mark_C #2232215 02/15/14 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Give me a break, please. Beethoven was able to write his greatest music only because of the detachment from the world that his deafness provided him.

No, give us a break. ha

Besides that being a theory and guess (with which I don't totally disagree, BTW), we don't know what other great or greater music he might have written if his hearing hadn't gone.

I would agree that it almost certainly would have been different.
But less great? We can't say.

That's why this is is a nothing argument. One can make a case for both sides and it's impossible to prove anything about what might have happened, because it didn't. grin


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232216 02/15/14 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by phantomFive

If only Beethoven hadn't gone deaf at the moment he was learning to choose instrumentations, his symphonies wouldn't all sound like they were playing an organ.

Give me a break, please. Beethoven was able to write his greatest music only because of the detachment from the world that his deafness provided him.

I'm interested whether you realize that what you said in no way contradicts what I said, nor does it involve given anyone a break.

Do you understand that Beethoven could have both chosen poor instrumentations as a result of his deafness, AND have written his greatest music as a result of his deafness? Does that make sense to you? Or is that level of reading comprehension above you?


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
phantomFive #2232219 02/15/14 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by phantomFive

If only Beethoven hadn't gone deaf at the moment he was learning to choose instrumentations, his symphonies wouldn't all sound like they were playing an organ.

Give me a break, please. Beethoven was able to write his greatest music only because of the detachment from the world that his deafness provided him.

I'm interested whether you realize that what you said in no way contradicts what I said...

I do, in case you're still interested. I disagreed with your post first, and then made a separate point.


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2232222 02/15/14 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
I don't see why his deafness would've made his orchestration any different. He still heard the music in his head.

One thing good composers do is try instruments in different combinations, experiment with new sounds, things that have never been heard before. For example, you might have the idea that five clarinets combined with two violins playing the same part might have a mellow, romantic sound, but unless you can hear it, you won't be sure. There might be some kind of subtle interaction between the instruments that you never noticed before.

That kind of thing is harder when you are deaf. Beethoven's music is great, but his instrumentation is rather standard.

Last edited by phantomFive; 02/15/14 06:45 PM.

Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232224 02/15/14 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by phantomFive

If only Beethoven hadn't gone deaf at the moment he was learning to choose instrumentations, his symphonies wouldn't all sound like they were playing an organ.

Give me a break, please. Beethoven was able to write his greatest music only because of the detachment from the world that his deafness provided him.

I'm interested whether you realize that what you said in no way contradicts what I said...

I do, in case you're still interested. I disagreed with your post first, and then made a separate point.


Good, that's good you understood it. So you disagreed, didn't give any reason for your disagreement, then changed the topic. I'm going to say, you need to give us a break!

Last edited by phantomFive; 02/15/14 06:44 PM.

Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2232230 02/15/14 06:56 PM
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See Joel's post above. I don't see a single weakness in scoring in any of Beethoven's later symphonies. Can you point out a passage which you think is badly written and how Beethoven could have "improved" it?


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232240 02/15/14 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
See Joel's post above. I don't see a single weakness in scoring in any of Beethoven's later symphonies. Can you point out a passage which you think is badly written and how Beethoven could have "improved" it?

I didn't say Beethoven's instrumentation is weak.

An example of creative instrumentation is Ravel's Bolero. It starts with a single flute playing the melody, with a drum playing percussion. Then the flute switches down to play percussion with the drum, while the clarinet picks up the melody. The whole song, the melody and harmony don't change much, it's an experiment in different instrumentations.

And since people here are allergic to Google (and won't even click on links to read them), the Ravel Bolero can be found below:


Last edited by phantomFive; 02/15/14 07:30 PM.

Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
phantomFive #2232246 02/15/14 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
I didn't say Beethoven's instrumentation is weak.

An example of creative instrumentation is Ravel's Bolero.

Implying that Beethoven's isn't, so indeed you are saying Beethoven's instrumentation is weak.

Originally Posted by phantomFive
The whole song...

smokin

Originally Posted by phantomFive
The whole song, the melody and harmony don't change much, it's an experiment in different instrumentations.

But Beethoven, unlike Ravel, wasn't trying to write an experiment in instrumentations. That wasn't the purpose of his symphonies. You can't accuse the symphonies of not being something they aren't meant to be.


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232247 02/15/14 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by phantomFive
The whole song...

smokin

Hey, maybe he just has a leg up on you on the evolution of vocabulary!

It's like NYC cell phone area codes. grin
It used to be that people with "917" were the elite. Anyone with anything else was a wannabe-come-lately.
But now, when someone has 917 (that includes me), he probably seems like a dinosaur, a relic. The cool people are the ones with 646 and 347!

You might wonder what that has to do with calling Bolero a song, and you wouldn't be entirely wrong. ha

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2232253 02/15/14 08:15 PM
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If he composes a piece he can call it whatever he wants. If he's referring to a piece by a master of the past, it's not appropriate to call it a "song."

PS - I have 646. grin


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232259 02/15/14 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
it's not appropriate to call it a "song."

Well, to be fair, if something fits the definition of a song, then it is okay to call it a song. See below for definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232262 02/15/14 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
But doesn't that support my point? None of the most brilliant musicians in history have had easy lives, and some of the greatest composers went through the greatest trauma - consider Beethoven's wreck of a childhood, followed by his struggle with deafness and the world.


My original point is that IQ isn't something fixed to yourself, and can be improved with time through motivation and hard work, or you can get an IQ "boost" (at least initially) by growing up in the right circumstances. Rough circumstances can provide the motivation to excel. Comfortable circumstances can give your young brain a better start and therefore an initial advantage, may it may also mean you lose some of your initial advantage later if you don't push yourself.

Both points suggest that intelligence is not some fixed trait, but rather heavily dependent on environment and individual determination.


Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232266 02/15/14 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Implying that Beethoven's isn't, so indeed you are saying Beethoven's instrumentation is weak.


Why don't you understand that something can be less than its full potential, but still not be weak?


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
phantomFive #2232273 02/15/14 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Implying that Beethoven's isn't, so indeed you are saying Beethoven's instrumentation is weak.


Why don't you understand that something can be less than its full potential, but still not be weak?

I'd have thought that if you want Beethoven's orchestration to sound like Berlioz's, you'd be better off listening to Hector himself - plenty of dazzling colour and glitter in his Symphonie fantastique, for example.

Harps and percussion galore, even an ophicleide and a serpent - why didn't poor old deaf Ludwig thought of that? Surely the chorus in his 9th needs reinforcement. Not to mention the Storm in the Pastoral....... wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
bennevis #2232278 02/15/14 09:40 PM
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Curie was born in 1867. IQ tests became "reliable" and gained currency around 1916. I very much doubt that Curie ever took an official intelligence test.





Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2232302 02/15/14 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
it's not appropriate to call it a "song."

Well, to be fair, if something fits the definition of a song, then it is okay to call it a song. See below for definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song

Precisely. Ravel's Bolero does not fit into the category of "a composition for voice or voices."


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
phantomFive #2232303 02/15/14 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Implying that Beethoven's isn't, so indeed you are saying Beethoven's instrumentation is weak.


Why don't you understand that something can be less than its full potential, but still not be weak?

Is anything ever at its full potential?


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2232305 02/15/14 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Is anything ever at its full potential?

Restoring this thread to its better topic of baseball ha ....

Rocky Bridges, scrappy old ballplayer and then minor league manager, when asked if he felt he reached his full potential as a player: "I think I might have gone beyond it." grin

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