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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2231255 02/14/14 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Maybe I should study for my IQ test.

Wouldn't that be defeating the purpose? wink

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2231267 02/14/14 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Intelligence is good. Most people are good-but they are not good all the time! Therefore, not all people are intelligent all the time.

On the other hand-maybe I need to think about this a little more. That might do me some good! Then I might be intelligent for at least a moment.

I don't know it all seems so confusing. Maybe I should quit this forum and study up for my IQ test.

Or screw the IQ test and simply try to be a good human being all the time. Ultimately that's more important than one's IQ. grin


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2231272 02/14/14 01:37 AM
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Thought I'd chime in with a very simple observation - scientifically gathered empirical evidence is not the only valid form of evidence, especially in an informal discussion. Anecdotal evidence is valid, eyewitness testimony is valid, and arguments possessing internally consistent logic and reasoning gives them greater credence as being valid. One can suggest reasons and ideas about the intelligence of pianists and attempt to sway the other to their point of view, all without a shred of empirical evidence. And there's nothing wrong with this.

I never understood people that obsess over empirical evidence. They need to make philosophy, humanities, and even religious studies mandatory for everyone, ESPECIALLY science and engineering students. We treat eyewitnesses as telling the truth until proven otherwise, and use their claims to put people to death in this country. We might as well throw history books out of the window while were at it, because they speak on matters for which we have no hard empirical data prior to the Age of Enlightenment.

Sheesh.

Artys, I recommend you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig. The guy who wrote it has an IQ of 190 and has something interesting to say about science. Ever thought about where your hypotheses come from?

Last edited by Roland The Beagle; 02/14/14 01:39 AM.

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2231276 02/14/14 01:48 AM
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I am thinking, especially in light of this thread, that intelligence may be a myth.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
wr #2231314 02/14/14 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
I am thinking, especially in light of this thread, that intelligence may be a myth.


You're absolutely right

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
wr #2231318 02/14/14 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
I am thinking, especially in light of this thread, that intelligence may be a myth.

What an intelligent observation.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2231320 02/14/14 05:06 AM
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'Intelligence is Overrated' - Socrates (?)


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2231324 02/14/14 05:11 AM
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"Knowledge puffs up, love builds up" - St Paul (one of the things attributed to him that I agree with)

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
bennevis #2231336 02/14/14 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Is that how 'intelligence' is defined in USA - based on exam scores in maths and verbal skills?


That's the thing with an IQ test. It measures one thing and one thing only: The ability to solve IQ tests. Any well programmed and powerful computer could do it.

But would I rather listen to Watson or Deep Blue perform Beethoven sonatas than Christoph Eschenbach or Yuja Wang? I think not.


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
bennevis #2231337 02/14/14 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
'Intelligence is Overrated' - Socrates (?)


By the way a most intelligent footballer, wasn't he.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
maxmila #2231359 02/14/14 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by maxmila
Originally Posted by bennevis
'Intelligence is Overrated' - Socrates (?)


By the way a most intelligent footballer, wasn't he.

Has Doctor Sócrates's IQ been measured?

I believe the original Greek philosopher's IQ has been estimated at 199.9 wink .



"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
patH #2231365 02/14/14 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by bennevis
Is that how 'intelligence' is defined in USA - based on exam scores in maths and verbal skills?


That's the thing with an IQ test. It measures one thing and one thing only: The ability to solve IQ tests. Any well programmed and powerful computer could do it.



Real IQ test results seem to be consistent throughout life, and mostly independent of schooling, academic attainment, life experiences, or even 'practicing' at sample IQ tests - unlike academic exams, like the SATS. The ones I did were basically tests of reasoning power, lateral thinking, visualisation and imagery, spatial awareness, deduction from given facts etc - and with time factor involved. They don't resemble Sudoku, or Scrabble, or any sort of academic tests.

Computers can easily beat the best chess players in the world, but I think some IQ test questions might well fox the silicon chip brain. (Like 'Why did the hen cross the road?' wink ).



"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
bennevis #2231463 02/14/14 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis

Real IQ test results seem to be consistent throughout life, and mostly independent of schooling, academic attainment, life experiences, or even 'practicing' at sample IQ tests - unlike academic exams, like the SATS.

You are right that SAT and GRE are a lousy way to measure IQ (not even MENSA does that anymore). A good IQ test will take into consideration things like age, for example; BUT

IQ definitely changes. This study shows changes by as much as 20 points in teenagers, for example. For the chronically lazy, here is another useful link.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
bennevis #2231505 02/14/14 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by maxmila
Originally Posted by bennevis
'Intelligence is Overrated' - Socrates (?)


By the way a most intelligent footballer, wasn't he.

Has Doctor Sócrates's IQ been measured?


I don't know. But I know that I don't know.

Actually, that Socrates of yours was not bad either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8&t=2m33s

Originally Posted by bennevis

I believe the original Greek philosopher's IQ has been estimated at 199.9 wink .


Probably another Plato's exaggeration.


Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2231679 02/14/14 07:11 PM
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I recall having read that, during the IQ boom, some researchers went and test some australian aborigines.When researchers explained the natives that their purpose was to determine wether anybody is more clever than others, aborigines were astonished that someone had such a futile,rude and inconsiderate interest. They all knew which one was the most clever and who was the dumbest in their group, but to make it evident was undoubtedly not fair. Therefore, they refused to be tested, proving, in my oppinion, their superior intelligence. None of them were pianists, by the way (well, the easy joke)


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
mabraman #2231683 02/14/14 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mabraman
I recall having read that, during the IQ boom, some researchers went and test some australian aborigines.When researchers explained the natives that their purpose was to determine wether anybody is more clever than others, aborigines were astonished that someone had such a futile,rude and inconsiderate interest. They all knew which one was the most clever and who was the dumbest in their group, but to make it evident was undoubtedly not fair. Therefore, they refused to be tested, proving, in my oppinion, their superior intelligence. None of them were pianists, by the way (well, the easy joke)

Aboriginals have a special 'intelligence' which is apparently unique to them, the ability to orientate themselves within a bland landscape (desert), or 'visual spatial memory'.

Which goes to show that people adapt to the environment they live in, and that the Western method of measuring intelligence is somewhat limiting.....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2231728 02/14/14 10:08 PM
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Intelligence is most definitely not fixed, and you can increase your intelligence. Music is a great way to do this.

Your brain is like a muscle - if you exercise it and keep it in shape, or even push it to get into better shape, them boom. Intelligence.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

I despise IQ tests. Young people get some number in their head that makes them think they are pre-ordained to be this, that or the other. I do remember at least one study that looked at Noble Prize winners and there was no correlation between them and their IQ scores as future predictors of success.

I have to think that IQ tests have a distinctly upper-middle class bias, although I have no empirical proof to support this claim at the moment. The early years of life are critical to shaping the brain and I know that I was born into a loving family of educated professionals with only the usual minor hiccups in an otherwise comfortable life.

Of course I grew up to be well-spoken because my parents spoke this way around me my whole life. These language skills are learned and of course SAT verbal will be easier for me. Of course I'm 'intelligent', because my early brain got the best environment possible to develop in in those crucial years. I also find that, to my surprise, most people who lived in my conditions are all 'smart' people who do very well on standardized tests, go to good schools, etc. Go figure. Of course, these facts say nothing about their character.

Give everyone the same opportunities in life and I bet there would be a lot more 'geniuses' around.

Also, intelligence is often so narrowly defined. Sports athletes are geniuses - the brain makes no distinction between physical and mental because they are products of the same system. Lebron James is a genius. Being able to coordinate your body in time and space to some ridiculous degree like that snowboarder in Sochi is genius, human poetry in motion.

Last edited by Roland The Beagle; 02/14/14 10:09 PM.

Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Roland The Beagle #2231737 02/14/14 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Roland The Beagle
Also, intelligence is often so narrowly defined. Sports athletes are geniuses - the brain makes no distinction between physical and mental because they are products of the same system. Lebron James is a genius. Being able to coordinate your body in time and space to some ridiculous degree like that snowboarder in Sochi is genius, human poetry in motion.

A "genius" is defined as a person with extraordinary creative or intellectual ability.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2231754 02/14/14 10:44 PM
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I have known some people who had very high IQ's but were mediocre at organizing novel solutions to real problems. Especially under time pressure.

I don't know of any system for measuring creative thinking other than life. I often marvel at how uncommon, (including myself) it is for people to excel at building a co- operative enterprise. It is probably the single most important intelligence skill. Some musicians are very good at this.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2231759 02/14/14 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I don't know of any system for measuring creative thinking other than life.

+1

Creative people have to create. It's in their blood. Anyone who is creative will naturally have creative works, but judging them is merely opinion. I don't know for sure, but I suspect there isn't any way to get an objective measurement on someone's creativity. If there was I'd find it very interesting.

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