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Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
sullivang #2229973 02/11/14 10:30 PM
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A detail;
It isn't JUST the speed of the individual devices.
Access to an external USB 3.0 thumb drive doesn't have to compete with O/S access to the system disc.
When push comes to shove O/S typically gets higher priority, so access to samples gets pushed back.

Here is an idea;
The installation program could (and probably SHOULD) detect the target disc type.
If it is a SDHC card read its speed, if inadequate raise alarm.
{where "inadequate" is an undefined variable}

Last edited by R_B; 02/11/14 10:39 PM.
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
HisKidd #2229975 02/11/14 10:38 PM
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hey you guys, I corrected typos in my last post.

Greg, thank you for the huge encouragement and thoughts about MIDI and such, and all of your comments.

I also must correct another error. the first adapter I linked to, is no good. the Data transmission is reversed from what I need.
i.e, it is for doing the opposite of what I want to do. details, details, lol.

talked to HP support, about not being able to stay logged in to this website. will try Google Chrome, instead of IE.

Digitalguy, thank you again so much, man.

right now, I'm thinking about putting a new pci card with usb 3.0 ports, in my old desktop.
I heard its not hard to do.

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
minstrelman #2230184 02/12/14 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by minstrelman


Digitalguy, thank you again so much, man.

right now, I'm thinking about putting a new pci card with usb 3.0 ports, in my old desktop.
I heard its not hard to do.


My experience with a similar adapter from UBS 1.0 to USB 2.0 is that it didn't change much... but maybe with UBS 3.0 it's different...

However this morning (in Europe) I moved American D and True Keys to my HHD to test. They both seem to work fine. I din't have any notes dropping etc. but maybe it can be pushed more... The only thing is that you have to leave alone American D for around 30 seconds after it loads otherwise is drops some notes, but after that it's perfectly fine. And True Keys takes longer to load, but not much longer maybe 10-20 seconds more... So HHD should be ok if you can wait a bit.


Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, HD58X, HD598, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, Presonus Eris E5, iLoud micro monitors, iPad Pro, HP Elite X2, Ivory II ACD, Korg Module for iPad, Vienna Imperial, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
HisKidd #2230205 02/12/14 09:36 AM
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cool. awesome. thanks alot man.

just CrystalDisked new HP:

seq read 96.94 MB/s


Last edited by minstrelman; 02/12/14 10:08 AM.
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
minstrelman #2230228 02/12/14 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by minstrelman
cool. awesome. thanks alot man.

just CrystalDisked new HP:

seq read 96.94 MB/s



that should be enough


Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, HD58X, HD598, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, Presonus Eris E5, iLoud micro monitors, iPad Pro, HP Elite X2, Ivory II ACD, Korg Module for iPad, Vienna Imperial, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
Digitalguy #2230236 02/12/14 10:51 AM
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oh really?

oh wow. thanks Digitalguy. here I am thinking I have to buy another computer. I'm scrapping the idea of putting a new pci card in my old desktop.
I read for a while last night about pci and pcie cards, slots, generations.....forget it.......it'd be a mess for someone who knows so little, like me, with an older computer.
am thinking of getting Ivory II American D. I read with great interest your thoughts about it on another thread. I had been thinking about getting it before.

edit: just crystaldisked my desktop. it has 2 drives. both are 7200 rpm. they are SATA.
C drive is 42% full: 194GB/466GB.
seq read: 111.9 MB/s
the F drives 18% full: 168GB/932GB (I could maybe move some or a lot of this to my external HDD if that would be a good thing.)
seq read: 122.2
any thoughts, man?
such as, do you think I should use my desktop for running SW piano programs?
if yes, would you suggest I use the F drive? and should I move some or alot of the data thats on it to my external HDD?
thank you very much for any thoughts?
one more thing: my desktop has a firewire 400 port. I have never used it. checked a little. says its working properly. not sure if it does for sure though.
Chasman





Last edited by minstrelman; 02/12/14 05:58 PM.
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
Digitalguy #2230474 02/12/14 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Digitalguy
Originally Posted by R_B
I think there is a lot more to it than JUST rotational speed.
Read ahead anticipation for sequential reads ?
The whole 'elevator algorithm' for one thing can be be stripped out for SSDs & thumb drives, so DO install any thumb drives on USB or SSD drives AS 'SSDs', not as 'HDDs'.

At a guess de-fragging MIGHT help too.
BTW, there are hybrid drives that have fair sized (8, 16 or 24 Gig) Solid state cache in front of a terabyte of spinning rust.
Replacing a regular hard drive with one of these involves backing up an IMAGE of the old drive and restoring it to the new drive.
That may cause Windoze and other software to believe that it is a bootlegged copy, so things that are licensed to particular hardware profiles may need re authorization.



Not sure I understood everything, maybe my English is not good enough (not my native language), but yes defragging can help with HHD (never defrag an SSD) but Windows Vista, 7 and 8 defrag automatically so no need to manually defrag. As for hybrids, my wife has an hybrid 500 HHD with a 32GB SSD, speed: 90 MB/s, less than an average 7200 rpm HDD...


I could have used better wording.
regarding sequential reads;
I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that the WHOLE FILE is read.
MUCH more likely that an index is built at the time of installation and when samples are requested the relevant portion of the file is read from cache (ram disc) if it is there, or disc if it is not, it then migrates to cache.
There is probably some populating of cache at start-up.
==================================================
The elevator algorithm is what is used on hard discs to best serve read requests out of sequence.
So called because it behaves like an elevator serving passengers.
The first passenger may get in at the 2nd floor and request the 38th floor.
While passing the 5th floor someone on the 7th floor presses the UP button on the wall.
The elevator will stop for them, i.e. it will interrupt its service of the first passenger to START serving the second one.
When they get in they request to be let out at the 17th.
It will stop at the 17th to let that passenger out

Ahh Hahh, the elevator will have served the second passenger COMPLETELY before finishing service of the first passenger.
{Unless someone has a special security or express key to bypass regular stops}

It won't start coming back down until it finishes serving the highest request - which could be a call to pick up someone wanting to go down.

...and so it is with disc seeks - and there may be express queues that have priority over "regular service".
All that is because of seek times and SSDs basically have no such problem to deal with, so install thumb drives and SDHC cards as SSDs to avoid the code overhead of the elevator algorithm.
==============================================
Linux ? Sorry, I probably shouldn't have introduced that.
VILabs UVI Workstation doesn't run on Linux )-;
================================================
re de-fragging;
I would put the samples file on the list of files to NOT be de-fragged after installation.
Just being cautious, it could mess with any indexes(indices), though it depends how those are built.
If you defrag BEFORE installing that is probably the best you can do.
The deletion of old large files (Piano sample programs that you no longer want) after installation of your latest and greatest sample library COULD lead to an indexing problem.
(IMO, etc.)


Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
HisKidd #2230508 02/12/14 05:57 PM
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R_B: Kontakt, on Windows, as far as I can tell, simply uses the Windows standard file system cache. If I do a reboot, load Kontakt, load an instrument, play a note and hold it for, say, 5 seconds, there will be disk accesses to load the portion of the sample after the pre-loaded portion. If I then play that note and hold it for 5 seconds again, there will be no disk accesses. (that portion of the sample has been cached). Now, if I manually clear the file system cache, and play the same note again, Kontakt will again read the sample from disk.

I have no idea how the UVI sample player behaves though.

Greg.

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
minstrelman #2230511 02/12/14 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by minstrelman
oh really?

oh wow. thanks Digitalguy. here I am thinking I have to buy another computer. I'm scrapping the idea of putting a new pci card in my old desktop.
I read for a while last night about pci and pcie cards, slots, generations.....forget it.......it'd be a mess for someone who knows so little, like me, with an older computer.
am thinking of getting Ivory II American D. I read with great interest your thoughts about it on another thread. I had been thinking about getting it before.

edit: just crystaldisked my desktop. it has 2 drives. both are 7200 rpm. they are SATA.
C drive is 42% full: 194GB/466GB.
seq read: 111.9 MB/s
the F drives 18% full: 168GB/932GB (I could maybe move some or a lot of this to my external HDD if that would be a good thing.)
seq read: 122.2
any thoughts, man?
such as, do you think I should use my desktop for running SW piano programs?
if yes, would you suggest I use the F drive? and should I move some or alot of the data thats on it to my external HDD?
thank you very much for any thoughts?
Chasman



Hi man, sorry been out all day, this speed is perfect for these pianos, given they seem to work fine on my 60/70 MB/s HDD (now back on SDD though).
As for American D, yes, you can't go wrong. I have been playing the other Ivory II pianos (friend of mine) and tough I do enjoy German D and Fazioli Italian, I like American D a bit more, but all 3 are great, and all 3 are better than True Keys, which is nonetheless one of the best piano around after Ivory II. It's a pity one can't get German D without the other 2 inferior pianos... otherwise I would buy it too. Vintage D is a very good piano indeed and I do enjoy it, but I like pianos that can have "power" and Vintage D sort of lacks this power in my opinion...


Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, HD58X, HD598, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, Presonus Eris E5, iLoud micro monitors, iPad Pro, HP Elite X2, Ivory II ACD, Korg Module for iPad, Vienna Imperial, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
HisKidd #2230524 02/12/14 06:17 PM
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wow. thanks. that is such great news. digging your further comments about the Ivory II SW pianos.
as for me using my desktop, am kind of assuming that it would be best for me to install Ravenscroft on the F drive. (I'm looking forward to checking out Ivory pianos next.)
could you please tell me if it would be necessary or smart or a good thing, for me to move a lot of the 168 GB of data that I have on there now (the vast majority of which is videos of me singing and playing guitar.....all posted on youtube), on to an external HDD?
thus, I would have a mostly empty F drive. (the F drive is a 1 TB drive.)

also, would you please clarify for me? would you recommend Ivory II American D, or German, or both (I understand that German only comes in the more expensive Grand Pianos set).

Last edited by minstrelman; 02/12/14 06:22 PM.
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
minstrelman #2230539 02/12/14 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by minstrelman
wow. thanks. that is such great news. digging your further comments about the Ivory II SW pianos.
as for me using my desktop, am kind of assuming that it would be best for me to install Ravenscroft on the F drive. (I'm looking forward to checking out Ivory pianos next.)
could you please tell me if it would be necessary or smart or a good thing, for me to move a lot of the 168 GB of data that I have on there now (the vast majority of which is videos of me singing and playing guitar.....all posted on youtube), on to an external HDD?
thus, I would have a mostly empty F drive. (the F drive is a 1 TB drive.)

also, would you please clarify for me? would you recommend Ivory II American D, or German, or both (I understand that German only comes in the more expensive Grand Pianos set).


to be honest I don't think it would make a great difference, it can make a different when the disk is almost full, but you are far from this.... If you really wanna be certain, do it and then speed test your HDD.

Otherwise well I don't know how close is your desktop to your piano and if this make any difference for you compared to a notebook... As far as I am concerned, I plan within a year or so to buy a powerful convertible/tablet with 512 GB SDD that would reside on my PC, next to my ipad. That way no more cables around and very easy to move outside too if needed...

Concerning Ivory II, I prefer American D to German D (the sound is a bit richer and darker in my opinion), but some people may prefer German D as they are close (after all 2 steinway D by the same company...) but American D has more samples and more velocity layers so given it's less expensive, I do recommend it over the German D in the set...


Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, HD58X, HD598, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, Presonus Eris E5, iLoud micro monitors, iPad Pro, HP Elite X2, Ivory II ACD, Korg Module for iPad, Vienna Imperial, Galaxy Vintage D, Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
Digitalguy #2230549 02/12/14 07:06 PM
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thanks tons for another excellent super helpful and like right away reply.
yeah, piano is on the other side of the room from the desktop. that does not concern me. I'll just run cables along the wall with the rest of them. lol
thank you for the excellent thoughts regarding moving stuff off of F drive.
as for Ivory II, excellent. I am soooooooo getting American Concert D.
just for your pleasure to know, in case you never heard this before. I went to near Toronto, Canada, to find a Kawai CA65 to try out, before I bought mine.
(the store is Merriam's. super nice people. super recommend buying from them, and definitely also super super recommend doing business with a guy named Greg in St. Catherine's, Ontario, who's business is called the Niagara Conservatory of Music. Greg was big hearted and selfless enough to suggest that I drive up to Merriams (because he thought that they would have a CA65 in stock that I could try out....Greg did not), to give me printed out driving instructions (me, a complete stranger from a foreign country), to Merriams. you meet some cool in the music biz, let me tell you folks.
ok, so at Merriams, they had a chart. it categorized AP's into tiers. maybe 4 tiers, with sub tiers.
ok. so, Steinway German, was in Tier 1. no surprise.......so far.
Steinway, New York (American), was in Tier 2.
I was surprised to see that.
whatever. I really don't get out much. lol

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
sullivang #2230659 02/12/14 10:20 PM
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Greg,
Yup, that makes PERFECT sense.

Another comment on de-fragging;
Yes, it is automatic on Windows 7 & 8, but it is a dumbed down version of its former self and there is now a total lack of control settings.
I disable it.

FAR better to get Auslogic's de-fragger, that will allow you to exclude files and folders that you want left alone, e.g. the files that hold the virtual disc drives for virtual machines and sample libraries.
Those are REALLY best left as they were created.

BTW, if you want to see how BAD CrystalDisc's results can get when the disc is BUSY - - try running it while Auslogic disc de-fragger is running on the SAME disc.
Expect to see ~1/3 the speed laugh

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
HisKidd #2230685 02/12/14 10:57 PM
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hey Digitalguy. I am reading reviews. I just saw this. I thought it may be of help to you in tweaking your American Concert D. here is a link, and a copy and paste of a specific part.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun13/articles/ivory-ii-american-concert-d.htm

"I don't suppose I'll ever be able to afford to buy a real Steinway piano, but if I did, I'd be happy if it sounded like this one. The remarkable thing about American Concert D (ACD for short) is that it achieves clarity and transparency without sounding harsh or over-bright; softly played notes in broken chords and arpeggios maintain a distinct presence, rather than blurring together into an undifferentiated mush. The instrument's positive, well-defined attack enables precision of touch, yet its timbre still has plenty of warmth; this is a virtual piano you can play sensitively and lyrically, and its dynamic and inter-note transitions are silky-smooth. It could be argued that those who require a thunderous, banging piano sound would be better served by a Bösendorfer or Yamaha grand, but believe me, once you turn on its built-in EQ and add 6dB at 3k, this Steinway can bang with the best of them."


and just found this new review, (just posted yesterday) of ACD at Amazon. geez, I wonder if I'll be getting it now.........lol.........only about a million percent chance I'd guess.....:


"The best digital recreation of a Steinway I have ever heard!, February 11, 2014



By

Keyboardtek - See all my reviews


This review is from: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D for MAC & WINDOWS

I have been a digital piano, organ, keyboard technician for 25 years. A Jazz pianist for 45 years. I have been searching for the ideal digital piano that actually triggers my endorphins like playing a well tuned and voiced American Steinway D. All of the acoustic piano purists seem to want to compare a digital instrument to the real acoustic piano. This is not fair. The tone of a digital instrument comes out of only two speakers and cannot provide the tactile vibrations one feels when playing an acoustic piano. As long as one keeps the review limited to comparing other digital instruments, then the Ivory II American D will blow everything out of the water! The crucial thing is the quality of the keyboard controller being used with Ivory. The new high end Kawai wooden key controller has been designed with Ivory use in mind. The quality of speakers is important. With my AKG K240 studio quality headphones, Ivory sounds magnificent! With my JBL three way home stereo speakers, Ivory, as well as any other piano, sounds like tin. On my cheap computer speakers Ivory sounds very nice. On my car stereo it sound bass dominant. So one must consider the speakers when reviewing a digital piano.

Personally, I feel the Ivory II American D Grand is the best digital recreation of a Steinway I have heard ."

Last edited by minstrelman; 02/12/14 11:35 PM.
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
HisKidd #2230861 02/13/14 10:04 AM
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I have started to play with UVI workstation.

Here's a tip for those new to it;
On Windows 7 it appears to SEIZE Realtek audio - and quite possibly whatever other audio drivers you have running.
I am looking for ways to persuade it to "SHARE" and will post here if/when I find it.
In the mean time, just bear in mind that once you get Ravenscroft and install it in UVI workstation you might find difficulty running anything else "beside" it for A/B comparisons.

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
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R_B, I don't know details of your problem, but exclusive access to the audio device seems to be normal behavior of some ASIO drivers, notably ASIO4ALL. If you want to compare more virtual pianos at once, just run them all inside one DAW.

Or did it SEIZE a different audio device than the one you use with ASIO?

On unrelated note, I believe that there is nothing wrong with defragging sample libraries or virtual drives. I also believe that there is no "elevator algorithm" employed in Windows disk access, the nearest thing is NCQ possibly implemented inside the drive itself. Windows has no information as to where whatever sectors are physically located so such an algorithm would not make sense.


Kawai CA65 :: Galaxy: Vintage D, Vienna Grand, Giant :: Pianoteq 5 :: Kontakt 5 :: Reaper :: True Keys pianos
Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
PtJaa #2230905 02/13/14 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PtJaa
R_B, I don't know details of your problem, but exclusive access to the audio device seems to be normal behavior of some ASIO drivers, notably ASIO4ALL. If you want to compare more virtual pianos at once, just run them all inside one DAW.

Or did it SEIZE a different audio device than the one you use with ASIO?

On unrelated note, I believe that there is nothing wrong with defragging sample libraries or virtual drives. I also believe that there is no "elevator algorithm" employed in Windows disk access, the nearest thing is NCQ possibly implemented inside the drive itself. Windows has no information as to where whatever sectors are physically located so such an algorithm would not make sense.


I just tried it against Pianoteq - - like many problems of this type "it went away when examined closely".
Right now I have both of them open and clicking on their piano keyboards DOES result in sound.
Earlier today it was repeatably taking exclusive control of Realtek.
If I can get it to do it again I will try to document the exact circumstances under which it happened.

BTW, they had a good enough demo running at NAMM, so why are people having to wait until tomorrow (approximately) for the RELEASE of this ?
OK, so maybe some fine tuning, but there will be updates anyway.
I understand pent up demand, maybe that is what they are trying to create with this pre-order program.

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
R_B #2230963 02/13/14 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by R_B

BTW, they had a good enough demo running at NAMM, so why are people having to wait until tomorrow (approximately) for the RELEASE of this ?


The discount window. It lets mugs like me pre-order at 25% off just in case it turns out to be the piano of my dreams. To be honest, I'm already regretting it. But it's not a king's ransom and I won't take such a risk again if it fails to pay off.

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
dire tonic #2231022 02/13/14 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by R_B

BTW, they had a good enough demo running at NAMM, so why are people having to wait until tomorrow (approximately) for the RELEASE of this ?


The discount window. It lets mugs like me pre-order at 25% off just in case it turns out to be the piano of my dreams. To be honest, I'm already regretting it. But it's not a king's ransom and I won't take such a risk again if it fails to pay off.


Is there a money back guarantee if, for some reason, you don't like it ?
e.g. If you have an old or unusual system that can't keep up and creates burps, farts, missed notes, missed "note offs" (don't Ya just HATE that one ?), etc.

The i-lok (or their alternative) would SEEM to indicate that they can withdraw the authentication if you ask for a refund.

Re: Ravenscroft by VI Labs… First Look and Sound
R_B #2231038 02/13/14 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by R_B
Is there a money back guarantee if, for some reason, you don't like it ?
e.g. If you have an old or unusual system that can't keep up and creates burps, farts, missed notes, missed "note offs" (don't Ya just HATE that one ?), etc.

The i-lok (or their alternative) would SEEM to indicate that they can withdraw the authentication if you ask for a refund.


No, there's no turning back. Farting is your own responsibility. I'd expect them to have eradicated all software glitches now, this being piano#4. Missing note-offs would be a surprise in this day and age.

In an earlier thread, VIlabs said for a nominal charge to cover re-assigning the ilok licence the software could be sold on.

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