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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230758
02/13/14 02:03 AM
02/13/14 02:03 AM
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Horowitzian Offline
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I found it. It is there, right above the standard deviation. But the columns are still entitled "SAT". More evidence that this source is potentially unreliable.

Last edited by Horowitzian; 02/13/14 02:03 AM.

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230759
02/13/14 02:04 AM
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@Horowitzian
The "SAT" is a developer error, not an error in the data or research. The most obvious give away to that is because the SAT does not contain these sections, and the cumulative SAT score is 2400.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230764
02/13/14 02:12 AM
02/13/14 02:12 AM
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Atrys: I strongly disagree, on multiple counts.

First of all, if the site can make a mistake like that, it means they're just not very careful, which isn't a good commendation for the rest of their work.

Secondly, no way do you know that the GRE typically has much larger spreads than the SAT. You're pretending.
And don't worry -- I won't ask you for "evidence" grin -- because I know it's false.

The spreads on both are similar. They have to be, because....well, I said why up there, and it needn't be repeated. If one or the other has a larger spread, it's minimal.

Anyway, I didn't do this to argue. If you want to argue further, you're on your own.

I'm just asking if anyone has ever had any indication that such large spreads (on either SAT or GRE -- take your pick, doesn't matter) are VERY COMMON. I'd be very surprised if they are.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Mark_C] #2230766
02/13/14 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

First of all, if the site can make a mistake like that, it means they're just not very careful

That is not true at all. Software engineers make minor mistakes that get through validation all the time. They're called "bugs".

Originally Posted by Mark_C

Secondly, no way do you know that the GRE typically has much larger spreads than the SAT.

I do know that the spreads are larger because I've checked around forums where people discuss the GRE and their scores. I even provided a link for you. Look at the spreads the users are reporting.

The data is from the GRE, it's pretty obvious once you acknowledge the minor developer mistake.

Last edited by Atrys; 02/13/14 02:17 AM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Mark_C] #2230768
02/13/14 02:18 AM
02/13/14 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
[...]

First of all, if the site can make a mistake like that, it means they're just not very careful, which isn't a good commendation for the rest of their work.

[...]


This is the crux of the problem. It doesn't matter what the data actually is.



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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230769
02/13/14 02:21 AM
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@Horowitzian
Again, minor developer mistakes, especially in the web space, are very common. It's actually a strange thing that so many make it through validation!

Last edited by Atrys; 02/13/14 02:21 AM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230770
02/13/14 02:22 AM
02/13/14 02:22 AM
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Looks like you are determined to argue, even if it requires violating rules of statistics. grin

Against my better judgment about wasting time ha ....I looked at the link.

TWO PEOPLE report large spreads on the GRE (and larger than on their SAT's) -- count 'em, 2 people, that's it -- and even taking those 2 people, neither had as great a spread as the AVERAGE that is reported for many fields in that other link.

Again: I disagree with you. I say you are wrong. I know that you think the reverse. So forget it -- it's over.

I'm asking about something else. If you keep obstructing it, you're just.....obstructing it. smile

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230772
02/13/14 02:27 AM
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@Mark_C
Yes, I only provided one forum link, but feel free to search for more. You'll find, just as I did, that people are reporting large spreads just as you see in the data.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Mark_C] #2230774
02/13/14 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
BTW, sort of off the subj (but I mean what difference does it make).... ha

I have a question. smile

Something that I don't think has been pointed out about the IQ data in Atrys' link (and let me emphasize, I don't intend this as having much to do with the subject of the thread; I'm not saying this is why those data don't prove anything, although let me say, it doesn't help).... grin

Those are some weird data.

I didn't notice this before because I hadn't looked in detail, besides looking just at the line for "Arts Performance" because as soon as I saw that, I realized it wasn't relevant to what we were talking about. I went back now just for fun, to see what they show for my major, and this immediately jumped out at me.

Anyone notice those mega-weird SPREADS between Verbal and Math?

Like, here's some of them:

Materials Engineering majors: V 494, M 727
Economics: V 503, M 706
Chem Engineering: V 493, M 714
Mechanical Engineering: V 469, M 724
Physical Sciences: V 486, M 697
Banking & Finance: V 467, M 711

And yeah, these are "cherry-picked"; there are lots of majors where the spread is smaller, but also lots of others where it isn't.

It makes me wonder altogether about the validity of these data. Maybe things have changed in the past 200 years since I took these tests grin ....or maybe the people I knew were unusually consistent between the verbal and math, but I can tell you that such spreads were very unusual even for any one person, and would have been unimaginable for any group of people that you might put together, even people in the same major. I had a spread of about 160 points and it was by far the largest of anyone in our crowd.

If such spreads really are unusual, then obviously there's just something wrong altogether with the data, over and above it not being relevant to this thread, which it isn't.

Most of you are closer to how it's been recently that I am. Are such spreads really that common? And in order for such spreads to be accurate as averages, even larger spreads would have to be pretty common for individuals -- and I wouldn't at all have thought this to be so.


I have an explanation. The math on the GRE is fairly basic for an engineering major. They have taken math so far beyond the level of the GRE, that most of them consider the math section to be like a free high-score. It's not hard. It's like if you were a senior in high school and had to do pre-algebra problems like "a+5=0". It's not a measure of intelligence, it's just that engineering students have worked to improve their skill at math far beyond that. I can write a lot about this topic, but essentially they've just practiced math more.

If you're looking for some data about musicians and intelligence, this and this look more promising, but they are just preliminary studies. There is still work to be done investigating this topic.

If anyone happens to care about my opinion, I would say that if you use your brain, you become smarter.

Last edited by phantomFive; 02/13/14 02:32 AM.

Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: phantomFive] #2230775
02/13/14 02:34 AM
02/13/14 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive

If anyone happens to care about my opinion, I would say that if you use your brain, you become smarter.

And how true this is! One might imagine a chicken-and-egg problem, but it's just synergy cool


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: phantomFive] #2230776
02/13/14 02:36 AM
02/13/14 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
....The math on the GRE is fairly basic for an engineering major. They have taken math so far beyond the level of the GRE, that most of them consider the math section to be like a free high-score. It's not hard....

Thanks for the good answer. Makes sense -- but I don't think it explains it, because that would mean that most of these very bright engineering types are barely in the average range on "verbal" and that many of them are well below average. Possible, sure; likely, I have doubt. Wouldn't you expect some of these brilliant people to have at least a 650 on verbal, and a fair number of them 700? In order for the averages to come out as indicated in Atrys' link, that would mean that a comparable number would have to be in the 300-400 range, with verbal-math spreads of 300 points and more. That's hard to get my head around.

What I'm still wanting to hear is if anyone actually KNOWS that such large spreads are very common, not just occasional. What you're saying is an explanation of how it could be so. I'm looking for whether people have been aware that it IS so.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for "evidence." grin

P.S. I see that those 2 links you gave are about studies suggesting that musicians are smarter than non-musicians.
Sounds right to me. grin
Anyway, they're not shocking....

Last edited by Mark_C; 02/13/14 02:48 AM.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230777
02/13/14 02:43 AM
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I don't know about the spreads, but I do know a lot of engineers, and they tend to be articulate with good language skills. Maybe not English major skills, but certainly better than the average Joe on the street.

The original data set cited is almost certainly flawed, IMHO. 1) It contains somewhat misleading typos (what OTHER typos are present?) and 2) we are only told who provided it; no links to the original research are to be found. We know nothing about how it was collected, e.g. sample size.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230778
02/13/14 02:48 AM
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@Mark_C
You can Google around and see that people are reporting the large spreads that we see in the GRE data that I linked. Many people are reporting these spreads.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230779
02/13/14 02:51 AM
02/13/14 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@Mark_C
You can Google around and see that people are reporting the large spreads that we see in the GRE data that I linked. Many people are reporting these spreads.


Why don't you link us to these? Unless they don't exist, in which case... laugh laugh laugh


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230780
02/13/14 02:55 AM
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@Horowitzian
Because they are very accessible. I've provided just one example already. It takes just seconds to see some others. I'm not asking you to do it...I'm just saying that if you'd like to see what GRE spreads look like, you can find out pretty easily.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230783
02/13/14 02:59 AM
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OK -- you made your point. You want us to google around. grin
Not too many of us will be interested to do that.

I asked some stuff. Please leave it alone and give other people a chance.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230786
02/13/14 03:04 AM
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@Mark_C
I'm not impeding anyone. Every user has an equal opportunity to post. All they have to do is post! Also, I don't "want" you to Google around. You said to show you the evidence, and I'm simply saying that you can easily access it if you want. It is made readily available by the magical powers of Google search cool


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Mark_C] #2230792
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Wouldn't you expect some of these brilliant people to have at least a 650 on verbal, and a fair number of them 700? In order for the averages to come out as indicated in Atrys' link, that would mean that a comparable number would have to be in the 300-400 range, with verbal-math spreads of 300 points and more. That's hard to get my head around.

A 300 point spread is what I would expect based on my experience. Remember, they aren't geniuses, they just practiced math a lot.

Last edited by phantomFive; 02/13/14 03:16 AM.

Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: phantomFive] #2230794
02/13/14 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
....Remember, they aren't geniuses, they just practiced math <i>a lot</i>.

I don't think you get 700 on the math GRE that way. (You don't have to be a "genius" but you do have to be very smart.)

BTW, the question I asked has sort of gotten put into 2 parts: Are such large spreads that common on any of these standardized verbal-and-math tests (I'm saying they probably aren't), and, do the average spreads increase from the SAT to the GRE?

For what it's worth, as I said before my SAT spread was 160 points and that was by far the largest of anyone in my crowd. I never took the GRE but I did take the MCAT, which has similar verbal and math sections, and my spread decreased, to 60 points.

Still mostly wondering if people know those very large spreads (like 250 points) to be very common. I'll settle for hearing about any instances where they happened. (Even Atrys' link on that last page didn't have spreads like that.)

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Mark_C] #2230796
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

Still mostly wondering if people know those very large spreads (like 250 points) to be very common.


I understand Google is hard for you, but can you at least read what I wrote? It was only two sentences!!!

Originally Posted by Mark_C

do the average spreads increase from the SAT to the GRE?

Good question, but I don't know; I only know about the GRE.

Last edited by phantomFive; 02/13/14 04:17 AM.

Poetry is rhythm
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