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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230657 02/12/14 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@JoelW
Oh puhhhleaase. Pompous, passive aggressive comments are constantly made all around this forums

There's a distinction.

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230658 02/12/14 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Pompous, passive aggressive comments are constantly made all around this forums across countless threads by a select few members...

...and you leave them all in the dust.

Originally Posted by Atrys
...you can ignore certain users if you want...

The old broken record routine.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230662 02/12/14 09:23 PM
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Oh look! You still find value in my posts! Thanks!


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: slipperykeys] #2230665 02/12/14 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by slipperykeys
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!


I saw this comment made on the Valentina Lisitsa thread and I disagreed with it there. It goes without saying that I disagree with it here so I won't say it.

I'm glad you didn't say it. grin

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230670 02/12/14 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Oh look! You still find value in my posts! Thanks!

[Linked Image]


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230729 02/13/14 12:04 AM
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BTW, sort of off the subj (but I mean what difference does it make).... ha

I have a question. smile

Something that I don't think has been pointed out about the IQ data in Atrys' link (and let me emphasize, I don't intend this as having much to do with the subject of the thread; I'm not saying this is why those data don't prove anything, although let me say, it doesn't help).... grin

Those are some weird data.

I didn't notice this before because I hadn't looked in detail, besides looking just at the line for "Arts Performance" because as soon as I saw that, I realized it wasn't relevant to what we were talking about. I went back now just for fun, to see what they show for my major, and this immediately jumped out at me.

Anyone notice those mega-weird SPREADS between Verbal and Math?

Like, here's some of them:

Materials Engineering majors: V 494, M 727
Economics: V 503, M 706
Chem Engineering: V 493, M 714
Mechanical Engineering: V 469, M 724
Physical Sciences: V 486, M 697
Banking & Finance: V 467, M 711

And yeah, these are "cherry-picked"; there are lots of majors where the spread is smaller, but also lots of others where it isn't.

It makes me wonder altogether about the validity of these data. Maybe things have changed in the past 200 years since I took these tests grin ....or maybe the people I knew were unusually consistent between the verbal and math, but I can tell you that such spreads were very unusual even for any one person, and would have been unimaginable for any group of people that you might put together, even people in the same major. I had a spread of about 160 points and it was by far the largest of anyone in our crowd.

If such spreads really are unusual, then obviously there's just something wrong altogether with the data, over and above it not being relevant to this thread, which it isn't.

Most of you are closer to how it's been recently that I am. Are such spreads really that common? And in order for such spreads to be accurate as averages, even larger spreads would have to be pretty common for individuals -- and I wouldn't at all have thought this to be so.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230734 02/13/14 12:09 AM
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I noticed that too, Mark, but I didn't bring it up. Also we literally know nothing about how this data was collected, especially sample sizes. The anomaly (I rather think it is one) you point out certainly makes me curious...


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230737 02/13/14 12:18 AM
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@Mark_C
Yeah the differences in those scores are pretty large, but it's relatively large. It's not really anything special to see, it's just the upper end of the "difference" spectrum. Some (not all) of my friends from high school had large differences in their scores, and they were all science/engineer-type kids, so at least that part wasn't too surprising.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230740 02/13/14 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
....Some (not all) of my friends from high school had large differences in their scores, and they were all science/engineer-type kids, so at least that part wasn't too surprising.

Thanks for the answer, but that's not what I was asking, and it doesn't help answer the concern.

I'm not shocked that "some" science types might have such spreads. What I'm wondering is if it's really common, which it would have to be in order for those data to be valid. And BTW you didn't say whether even those "some" people had spreads THAT large. And in fact, for the data to be valid, you'd need "some" people (actually many -- like very nearly half) to have spreads larger.
Not just some people, but many.

I poked around online a little, and two sets of such data readily came up: The set that you posted, and:

THIS

....which shows much more normal and expectable spreads.

To me, that set of data is highly plausible. I'm in great doubt that the other set is.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230743 02/13/14 12:45 AM
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@Mark_C
The link you provided is using data from the SAT. The link I provided is using data from the GRE, so it makes sense that the differences are there, because they are different tests.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230747 02/13/14 12:50 AM
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Both links use SAT data.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230748 02/13/14 12:51 AM
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@Horowitizian
Click on the link I provided. It's very clear that the data is from the GRE.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230749 02/13/14 12:53 AM
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230750 02/13/14 12:54 AM
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Horowitzian is right.

Originally Posted by Atrys
The link you provided is using data from the SAT. The link I provided is using data from the GRE....

Is that how closely you read things in general? grin

You're wrong. The link you provided gives SAT data, not GRE.
How could you possible mistake it? It SAYS, very boldly, "SAT."

Quote
....so it makes sense that the differences are there, because they are different tests.

Is that the extent of how well you know about these standardized tests? grin

It's funny....you were kicking people's butts (people who know A LOT about all these things), and posing as someone who was relatively an expert (compared to us), and yet you can say stuff like this.

Besides your being just wrong about what was given in the link that you posted, you're also completely wrong about what would be the story even if those were GRE data.

I doubt that such huge average spreads are any more common on the GRE than on the SAT. And with good reason, because the correlation between people's performance on the verbal and math of the SAT and on the verbal and math of the GRE is very, very high.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230751 02/13/14 12:55 AM
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@Horowitzian
Yes, that one. At the heading of the table you'll find the text "Graduate Record Examination Scores"

Additionally, Verbal and Quantitative are GRE test sections, not SAT test sections. On top of that, if you look up the GRE and see people talk about it in forums, they report large score differences similar to what Mark_C has identified. This is GRE data.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230753 02/13/14 12:56 AM
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@Mark_C
Those are GRE data, read my previous post and look up what the GRE sections are. It is GRE data.

Also look here: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/341535-gre-v-s-sat-difficulty.html

The users are posting differences in scores that reflect what you found. It is not SAT data.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230754 02/13/14 12:58 AM
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Just going to throw this out there: how many joints have you smoked in the last 24 hours? laugh


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230755 02/13/14 01:00 AM
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@Horowitzian
The heading of the table clearly states "Graduate Record Examination Scores". Also, if you look at the GRE test sections, they are Verbal and Quantitative, just as the table reflects. The SAT has different sections. Also, the spread in the GRE sections is much greater per the forum link I just provided.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: Atrys] #2230756 02/13/14 01:00 AM
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Oy. ha

The columns are titled "SAT."

Nowhere on that page do I see "GRE" or "Graduate Record Exam," or anything resembling that.

But even if it were the GRE, the issues would be exactly the same, I'd have exactly the same question, and I'd invite anyone to say if they've ever known such spreads to be very common -- which they'd have to be, and which is very doubtful.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent? [Re: pianoloverus] #2230757 02/13/14 01:03 AM
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@Mark_C
It is right at the top of the table. It says "Graduate Record Examination Scores", which is the GRE. The "SAT" heading you're seeing is an error in the HTML markup that the developer made.

Also, if you look around, you'll see the large differences you identified are not uncommon at all for the GRE. I provided a forum link with some people showing the large differences in their GRE scores.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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