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Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Old Man] #2229798
02/11/14 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Man
What if a composer were to write something so fiendishly difficult that only a single pianist was capable of playing it? Would you then concede that the performer and the composer should receive equal credit?

Let me make an analogy. Think of it like a book. Anyone who reads the book should get as much credit as the author?


Regards,

Polyphonist
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Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Polyphonist] #2229805
02/11/14 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Old Man
What if a composer were to write something so fiendishly difficult that only a single pianist was capable of playing it? Would you then concede that the performer and the composer should receive equal credit?

Let me make an analogy. Think of it like a book. Anyone who reads the book aloud to an audience should get as much credit as the author?

What's wrong with you? Are you hard of understanding? I stated twice (once to you specifically) that creator and interpreter share different kinds of credit. How do you not get that?

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: JoelW] #2229808
02/11/14 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Old Man
What if a composer were to write something so fiendishly difficult that only a single pianist was capable of playing it? Would you then concede that the performer and the composer should receive equal credit?

Let me make an analogy. Think of it like a book. Anyone who reads the book aloud to an audience should get as much credit as the author?

What's wrong with you? Are you hard of understanding? I stated twice (once to you specifically) that creator and interpreter share different kinds of credit. How do you not get that?

Wow, that escalated quickly.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229810
02/11/14 06:42 PM
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Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229813
02/11/14 06:44 PM
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In your opinion.


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Polyphonist
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229833
02/11/14 07:05 PM
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Okay, that might have been a little hostile, but it's frustrating when someone keeps asserting what they think is an argument after I've already rendered it invalid as one, twice. Are you just skipping my posts?

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229839
02/11/14 07:14 PM
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I really do not see how she is disrespecting the piece at all. She is a pianist practicing some music. There is nothing inherently funny about it. Some people enjoy watching pianists practice music. Some prefer to watch recitals and performances. I am honestly somewhat surprised that there is such a debate over this.

Last edited by Ritzycat; 02/11/14 07:14 PM.
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Polyphonist] #2229843
02/11/14 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Old Man
What if a composer were to write something so fiendishly difficult that only a single pianist was capable of playing it? Would you then concede that the performer and the composer should receive equal credit?

Let me make an analogy. Think of it like a book. Anyone who reads the book should get as much credit as the author?

I don't think that analogy works. With literature, there is direct communication between the author and the reader. The words on the page are already in a useable form, and immediately accessible to the reader. No middleman required. (Of course, the reader may be oblivious to the meaning of those words, but that's a separate issue.)

Music, on the other hand, requires a collaborator. What good would it do to distribute the score for Rach 3 to an audience? "Here ya go. Enjoy!" I think most people would be demanding a refund for that particular "concert"!

Music is sound. It does not exist on paper. It requires expression, and therefore, a performer - a person with very specialized skills who can bring the "ovals and stems" to life. So, the reader of a book is not analogous to the performer, but to the listener. The performer is a middleman (but an absolutely essential middleman) who creates the sound and gives expression to the genius of the composer. Only then can the listener reap the rewards of that genius.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Old Man] #2229846
02/11/14 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Man
What good would it do to distribute the score for Rach 3 to an audience? "Here ya go. Enjoy!" I think most people would be demanding a refund for that particular "concert"!

grin

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Old Man] #2229848
02/11/14 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Man
Music is sound. It does not exist on paper.

A book is ideas. It does not exist on paper. A book is not made of words, just as music is not made of notes.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229853
02/11/14 07:31 PM
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Whether it's a book, a movie or a play, the purpose behind all is story telling. Regardless of medium, they do the same thing. Music, on the other hand, is aural. Even if what you're hearing is in your head, reading the score. It is aural, period.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229856
02/11/14 07:35 PM
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What's the difference? Both a book and a score are a gateway to the ideas contained within.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Polyphonist] #2229861
02/11/14 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
What's the difference? Both a book and a score are a gateway to the ideas contained within.

I just think there's more of a static quality in paintings and literature than there is in music.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Polyphonist] #2229887
02/11/14 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
To paraphrase Ludwig van Beethoven, "There are and there will be thousands of performers. There is only one composer."

Is that so? wink
When I go to a piano recital there are usually works from several composers, but only one performer.



Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Polyphonist] #2229898
02/11/14 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
What's the difference? Both a book and a score are a gateway to the ideas contained within.

Agreed. But the gateway to the ideas of a book are directly accessible to the reader, whereas the gateway to the ideas of a great musical composition are not accessible to the listener. An intermediary is required, and that intermediary must have extraordinary talent.

Of course, a book may also require an intermediary. If I'm old and blind, incapable of reading the words myself, then I would need someone to read the book to me. In that case, the middleman would be indispensable to my comprehending the ideas.

But the level of skill required to read a book aloud does not compare to the level of skill needed to "transmit" the ideas in Beethoven's Emperor or Rach 3. They're simply not in the same universe, so to describe the role of a pianist as "miniscule" is, IMHO, ridiculous.

Edit: On second thought, reading Beowulf aloud could also prove challenging. smile

Last edited by Old Man; 02/11/14 08:32 PM.
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Atrys] #2229918
02/11/14 08:54 PM
02/11/14 08:54 PM
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Here, as opposed to there
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Nobody cares.



YES, they do! You have much to learn.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2229922
02/11/14 08:57 PM
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A musical composition is pure in it by itself. Even the composers themselves are not able to achieve the perfection and ideal of the true potential of their own writing.

A pianists job is to bring the composition to its maximum potential. A potential that is never 100% achievable.

If I use a vector based software program to create a perfect circle, the idea of it is 100% perfect represented by math. But creating a perfect circle in real life is impossible. That's why ball bearings in submarines are extremely expensive, because they are very close to ideal (the more perfect, the less sound they make which in war submarines is a big issue)

So although the pianist in in charge of making this perfect circle as perfect as they are capable, the idea of this circle was not generated within the pianist. The composer was the God.

Yes, without the pianist, there is no Rachmaninoff third coming to life. But trust me, there is always another pianist next in line to fill the job. But how many Rachmaninoff's are there?

The idea that the composer is more important than the pianist is obviously not going to be received well here because of the tremendous bias and unflattering admission to ourselves that we are nothing but a tool, where the real art was already engineered. Some tools are sharper than others, so if it bothers you as a pianist, stand out by being sharper than the other tools.

The idea of being a pianist is not all that bad. As pianists, we have the opportunity of most intimately understanding the composer.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: JoelW] #2229923
02/11/14 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Okay, that might have been a little hostile, but it's frustrating when someone keeps asserting what they think is an argument after I've already rendered it invalid as one, twice. Are you just skipping my posts?


I'm sure he's not. Have you ever considered the fact that you (contrary to your opinion) are not always right? Maybe he doesn't feel you've rendered anything.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2230153
02/12/14 05:15 AM
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Wow, what a lot of misinformation about the music, the movie, and the second world war.

It's not about the Holocaust. The movie was released in June of 1941, six months before the Wannsee conference and three years before the discovery of Majdanek. The writers and director might have been aware of Kristallnacht and anti-semitism in Germany, but the movie is mainly about the air war, first over Poland, and later over Britain. The title "Dangerous Moonlight" refers to the Luftwaffe's use of moonlit nights for bombing raids on Britain. The shortened version released here in the USA was re-titled "Suicide Squadron" -- in pre-Pearl Harbor America, the original title likely would have been mistaken for a romantic comedy.

In the story, the concerto is being written by a Polish composer/fighter pilot. The conceit is that bits of the work in progress are being used as the film's score. In reality, veteran film composer Richard Addinsell was just writing the cues that had been spotted. The film ends with the premier of the fictional concerto, which, according to an insert of a program, has three movements.

The film was, frankly, mediocre. But the music was a big hit. So much so that the producers had Addinsell and orchestrator Roy Douglas pull the movie's cues together into the one movement piece that we know today. It was released on a 78 RPM record, again a big hit -- so much so that the demand arose for live performances. And the rest is history. Actually, it's all history.

There are a couple stories on the Rachmaninoff connection. The producers either tried to hire Rachmaninoff, or to license the Second Piano Concerto. Rachmaninoff either said no, or wanted too much money. In any case, Addinsell knew what they wanted, and gave it to them.

So, my opinions:

The concerto is remarkably good given how it came to be. Valentina Lisitsa can play it any way she wants, there's nothing sacred here. I like her performance at Proms, but hey, what do I know?




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Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: JohnSprung] #2230160
02/12/14 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Valentina Lisitsa can play it any way she wants, there's nothing sacred here... but hey, what do I know?




Way to undermine yourself.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2230170
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This thread is just funny now. No credit to the performer says some? Come on - sure the performer didn't write the piece but the performer has to convey it to the audience so let's credit the performer please. Of course the performer is important - the performer is the composition's voice in that moment - and the composition can also give voice to the performer. Think about it. The composition wants a certain mood? Well it takes the performers experience of that mood to convey it, no?

And yes the Warsaw concerto was never meant to be put on a pedestal. It's a piece of film fluff really, and a film made in 1941 is not depicting the events of 1943 . The holocaust wasn't known in the west in 1940 /41 anyway. Of course the holocaust is important but the piece simply isn't about that. The piece was probably the director briefing addinsell to write sections of a pseudo romantic Rachmaninoff-esque concerto.

It's pure entertainment, that is all. And who cares if Lisitsa sight read it on YouTube?

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2230233
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Unfortunately, there is NO statistical evidence that Lisitsa isn't a great great great artist, so all of you arguing that she's shallow have NO scientific evidence to stand by.

It's statistics, people. And science. Statistics AND science. Can't beat that, now can you?

ha ha ha ha

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Orange Soda King] #2230258
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Unfortunately, there is NO statistical evidence that Lisitsa isn't a great great great artist, so all of you arguing that she's shallow have NO scientific evidence to stand by.

It's statistics, people. And science. Statistics AND science. Can't beat that, now can you?

ha ha ha ha


This has been already discussed in the previous posts.
The fan base that forms the statistical data is uneducated and untalented. The elitists, purists and good educated musicians have different tastes that Lisitsa is not able to satisfy.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: ChopinLives81] #2230268
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Quote
The fan base that forms the statistical data is uneducated and untalented. The elitists, purists and good educated musicians have different tastes that Lisitsa is not able to satisfy.


I'm all for different tastes, but it seems to me that you are coming down a tad hard on Lisitsa, and are being unduly insulting to those who like her, as if nobody with any talent or erudition could possibly come to the conclusion that her playing holds any artistic merit.

I know you to be capable of more nuanced positions, but here you seem to be at risk for losing credibility to have drawn such a bright line where you have.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: TwoSnowflakes] #2230285
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Quote
The fan base that forms the statistical data is uneducated and untalented. The elitists, purists and good educated musicians have different tastes that Lisitsa is not able to satisfy.


I'm all for different tastes, but it seems to me that you are coming down a tad hard on Lisitsa, and are being unduly insulting to those who like her, as if nobody with any talent or erudition could possibly come to the conclusion that her playing holds any artistic merit.

I know you to be capable of more nuanced positions, but here you seem to be at risk for losing credibility to have drawn such a bright line where you have.


You are right. In fact this is just to say that different people have different tastes. And it is obvious that Lisitsa is speaking to the tastes of a large amount of people who like her.
But, just like Justin Bieber, who has an enormous fan base, there might not be a correlation necessarily between quality and quantity.
Lisitsa is providing easy to listen, mostly romantic music, most of the time emphasizing the technical side of the pieces. This is probably what young musicians, pianists find interesting. I too remember listening to different pianists of the same piece and judging by speed when I was too young. This is normal and understandable.
Otherwise I respect both Lisitsa and Justin Bieber on what they are doing.

Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Hakki] #2230289
02/12/14 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Unfortunately, there is NO statistical evidence that Lisitsa isn't a great great great artist, so all of you arguing that she's shallow have NO scientific evidence to stand by.

It's statistics, people. And science. Statistics AND science. Can't beat that, now can you?

ha ha ha ha


This has been already discussed in the previous posts.
The fan base that forms the statistical data is uneducated and untalented. The elitists, purists and good educated musicians have different tastes that Lisitsa is not able to satisfy.


If you want to use statistics please explain where you got them and how you came to your conclusion based upon them.


Andrew Remillard
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Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Hakki] #2230293
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Quote
The fan base that forms the statistical data is uneducated and untalented. The elitists, purists and good educated musicians have different tastes that Lisitsa is not able to satisfy.


I'm all for different tastes, but it seems to me that you are coming down a tad hard on Lisitsa, and are being unduly insulting to those who like her, as if nobody with any talent or erudition could possibly come to the conclusion that her playing holds any artistic merit.

I know you to be capable of more nuanced positions, but here you seem to be at risk for losing credibility to have drawn such a bright line where you have.


You are right. In fact this is just to say that different people have different tastes. And it is obvious that Lisitsa is speaking to the tastes of a large amount of people who like her.
But, just like Justin Bieber, who has an enormous fan base, there might not be a correlation necessarily between quality and quantity.
Lisitsa is providing easy to listen, mostly romantic music, most of the time emphasizing the technical side of the pieces. This is probably what young musicians, pianists find interesting.

+1


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Hakki] #2230295
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Unfortunately, there is NO statistical evidence that Lisitsa isn't a great great great artist, so all of you arguing that she's shallow have NO scientific evidence to stand by.

It's statistics, people. And science. Statistics AND science. Can't beat that, now can you?

ha ha ha ha


This has been already discussed in the previous posts.
The fan base that forms the statistical data is uneducated and untalented. The elitists, purists and good educated musicians have different tastes that Lisitsa is not able to satisfy.


I would say that the musicians who perform with her are satisfied with her performances. Are you claiming that Hillary Hahn is uneducated and untalented?


Semipro Tech
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: Polyphonist] #2230301
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02/12/14 12:51 PM
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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BruceD  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,311
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Old Man
What if a composer were to write something so fiendishly difficult that only a single pianist was capable of playing it? Would you then concede that the performer and the composer should receive equal credit?

Let me make an analogy. Think of it like a book. Anyone who reads the book should get as much credit as the author?


That analogy seems quite false to me. By extension, it's tantamount to saying that anyone listening to a piece of music should get credit along with the composer.

There's an enormous gap between the skills and artistry involved in performing and interpreting a work and simply listening to it.

While a musical work exists on paper as does a written text, the text needs only to be read while the musical work needs to be performed by one with technique and interpretive skills. Those who don't have those skills need to rely on someone who does in order for them to hear the work. I don't see how one can dismiss the role of the performer, for, without him/her, the work won't exist for many.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Here's Valentina Lisitsa learning and practicing a new piece [Re: BruceD] #2230306
02/12/14 12:57 PM
02/12/14 12:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
Bay Area, CA
beet31425 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
beet31425  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Let me make an analogy. Think of it like a book. Anyone who reads the book should get as much credit as the author?

That analogy seems quite false to me. By extension, it's tantamount to saying that anyone listening to a piece of music should get credit along with the composer.


The proper analogy is: Think of it like a play. Anyone who performs in the play should get as much credit as the author?

I don't know if the great Shakespearian actors should be getting "as much" credit as Shakespeare, but, yes, they should be getting some serious credit, even though it's a different type of artistry: interpretive rather than creative.

-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
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