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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230082 02/12/14 01:11 AM
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Pro pianists could be highly intelligent, but may lack proper socials skills.

Pro rock guitarists on the other hand could be of questionable intelligence, but have all the social excesses!!

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230084 02/12/14 01:12 AM
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@Mark_C
Wow! You even fail to provide evidence to that claim! I really hope your discipline is not in any of the sciences, engineering or otherwise logic-intensive fields. If so, I pity your employer thumb


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230085 02/12/14 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@Mark_C
Wow! You even fail to provide evidence to that claim! I really hope your discipline is not in any of the sciences, engineering or otherwise logic-intensive fields. If so, I pity your employer thumb

I pity someone who has nothing better to do than sit here and read this thread. smokin


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230086 02/12/14 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@Mark_C
Wow! You even fail to provide evidence to that claim! I really hope your discipline is not in any of the sciences, engineering or otherwise logic-intensive fields. If so, I pity your employer thumb

(That would be me.) grin

Atrys, you're being kind of blind here, and I suspect it's on purpose.

The thing in my above post doesn't need any "evidence," because what you said is plainly, simply, incorrect. It's a simple error of reasoning. Some things, y'know, are just incorrect, like 2 + 2 = 5. smile

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230087 02/12/14 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Horowitzian

You missed the point. This is a public forum, not a peer reviewed journal.

Agreed. That's why my initial post was simply giving an evidence-based answer to the OP question.


Allow me to quote your original post.

Originally Posted by Atrys
Master pianists would probably perform pretty well in certain portions of the WAIS-IV, but don't expect anything from the final score. Being a master pianist does not imply any kind of significant gain in a composite IQ score.


No, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that the best of the best aren't necessarily also highly intelligent. As I state above, ascending Parnassus is no mean feat. Those that make it certainly are intelligent.

Quote

If you look here: http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/

You'll actually find that "Arts-Performance & Studio" majors are pretty low on the spectrum, with an average IQ of 114.


That category paints musicians with a rather broad brush, don't you think? I don't know for sure, but that category seems like a composite of a lot of different disciplines that may be considered under the umbrella of "The Arts".

Quote

Being a master pianist does not mean you are necessarily highly intelligent. However, the elite in things such as math, the sciences, and engineering can be considered to be "highly intelligent" (insofar as a composite IQ score).


The burden of proof is on you here. Show us specific data relating to musicians vs. mathematicians/physicists/engineers. The statistics quoted are far too broad and do not apply.



Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Mark_C #2230088 02/12/14 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Atrys
@Mark_C
Wow! You even fail to provide evidence to that claim! I really hope your discipline is not in any of the sciences, engineering or otherwise logic-intensive fields. If so, I pity your employer thumb

(That would be me.) grin

Atrys, you're being kind of blind here, and I suspect it's on purpose.

The thing in my above post doesn't need any "evidence," because what you said is plainly, simply, incorrect. It's a simple error of reasoning. Some things, y'know, are just incorrect, like 2 + 2 = 5. smile

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he came in here and started arguing that.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2230090 02/12/14 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Atrys
@Mark_C
Wow! You even fail to provide evidence to that claim! I really hope your discipline is not in any of the sciences, engineering or otherwise logic-intensive fields. If so, I pity your employer thumb

(That would be me.) grin

Atrys, you're being kind of blind here, and I suspect it's on purpose.

The thing in my above post doesn't need any "evidence," because what you said is plainly, simply, incorrect. It's a simple error of reasoning. Some things, y'know, are just incorrect, like 2 + 2 = 5. smile

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he came in here and started arguing that.


But 2 + 2 = 5 for large values of 2. grin


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Horowitzian #2230091 02/12/14 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

(That would be me.)

My condolences.

Originally Posted by Horowitzian

That category paints musicians with a rather broad brush, don't you think? I don't know for sure, but that category seems like a composite of a lot of different disciplines that may be considered under the umbrella of "The Arts".

Agreed! But the overlap and quartile of the category is enough to extrapolate from (statistical hypothesis testing, etc)

Originally Posted by Horowitzian

Show us specific data relating to musicians vs. mathematicians/physicists/engineers

I don't need to because that is not my claim. My claim is fully supported by the single link above. This is how easy it is: look at the table, consider the quartiles and the standard deviation.

I think many of you just don't understand statistics enough to realize their strength. I'm not an expert, but I don't have to be. Even a single upper division stats course teaches enough to understand the data here (and the methods that can be used to extrapolate).


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230092 02/12/14 01:23 AM
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The median hourly wage for musicians and singers was $23.50 in May 2012.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/entertainment-and-sports/musicians-and-singers.htm

Does an intelligent person follow a career path that pays well or one that they love? The answer to this is likely the answer to whether professional pianists are highly intelligent.





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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Horowitzian #2230095 02/12/14 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Horowitzian

Quote

Being a master pianist does not mean you are necessarily highly intelligent. However, the elite in things such as math, the sciences, and engineering can be considered to be "highly intelligent" (insofar as a composite IQ score).
The burden of proof is on you here. Show us specific data relating to musicians vs. mathematicians/physicists/engineers. The statistics quoted are far too broad and do not apply.


Absolutely !!

And not "musicians" in general but "master pianists."

grin



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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230097 02/12/14 01:34 AM
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@carey
Yet another failure to understand what a standard deviation is, and how to understand statistical evidence.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
BruceD #2230098 02/12/14 01:37 AM
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I think I take back everything I ever said about re-upping old threads. ha

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230099 02/12/14 01:38 AM
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Perfectly said, Horowitzian.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Tararex #2230102 02/12/14 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tararex
The median hourly wage for musicians and singers was $23.50 in May 2012.
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/entertainment-and-sports/musicians-and-singers.htm


As my 12th grade teacher noted when grading one of my less inspired English compositions, "happy generalizations!!" smile

Quote
Does an intelligent person follow a career path that pays well or one that they love?


That would depend on one's definition of "intelligence." Smart folks usually understand that there's more to life than $$$. grin

Last edited by carey; 02/12/14 01:40 AM.

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230104 02/12/14 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
@carey
Yet another failure to understand what a standard deviation is, and how to understand statistical evidence.

Ask me if I care. On second thought, never mind. ha


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Carey #2230105 02/12/14 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Atrys
@carey
Yet another failure to understand what a standard deviation is, and how to understand statistical evidence.

Ask me if I care. On second thought, never mind. ha

You can worry about it even less. It was a blind person talking about what he sees. smile

IBTL. grin

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2230107 02/12/14 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I think I take back everything I ever said about re-upping old threads. ha


laugh laugh

Well, I'm done with this one. I'm pretty sure we all know which person in this discussion doesn't understand statistics. Especially if s/he thinks that those incredibly broad numbers grabbed from a website are useful in any way. Basically all they tell you is the standard deviation and that 95% of the population is within two standard deviations. Tell us something we don't know. There is a time and a place to expect a certain level of mathematical competence from the reader; a piano forum is not that place.

And data is in a form that is difficult to manipulate if one wanted to plug it into statistical software (R, Minitab, etc) to do their own analysis (descriptive statistics, distributions, etc).

Originally Posted by JoelW
Perfectly said, Horowitzian.


I do my best... smile

Last edited by Horowitzian; 02/12/14 02:24 AM. Reason: Thanks, Mark

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230109 02/12/14 02:01 AM
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@Horowitzian
Lol! I don't know where you took your stats courses, but you definitely are not interpreting the findings comprehensively laugh laugh


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230111 02/12/14 02:04 AM
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(The only thing wrong with his post was that he meant 2 standard deviations.) grin

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230112 02/12/14 02:07 AM
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@Mark_C
There are plenty of other things he is not accounting for. I'm loving this confirmation bias as a platform for argumentum ad ignorantiam cool

Last edited by Atrys; 02/12/14 02:08 AM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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